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 Post subject: Re: Make a draft mode already
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:31 am 
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Wakkabanana wrote:
Fine, I'll tell you from a different perspective.

Drafts don't work without bans because the games 3v3. Getting your first pick hardcountered out of the game right off the bat isn't a fun or interesting game for anyone involved. You instantly lose the game if that happens and it creates so much pressure on how RNG rolls your first pick and how crucial that player is. You cannot fight this game 2v3 most of the time, it doesn't work.

Non-ban draft works in other mobas because first picks are often expendable non-item dependent supports. They don't carry games, they just have to be there to be utility disable and spells.

There's so much pressure on each member to correctly pick a character that can't be countered/hard counters the enemy picks that so few players can actively do it in a game like this. Learning each character's individual movement options and proper build order as well as counter-picking build order is a monumental task not other mobas have to deal with because of how simple a character is in most mobas.

Every pick in this game is important, you already argued having a blind counterpick is infuriating, imagine being first pick and getting purposely counterpicked every single game.


I disagree with the way you're viewing drafts though it's definitely a reasonable and something I had not considered. However, after thinking about I don't really think it's fair to consider counterpicks to 1st pick without considering the counterpicks to those. For example, say you first picked Leon, and the enemy team counter picked you with Swiggins. Well, now you can counter pick that Swiggins with Clunk or Skolldir, two nauts that also work well with Leon.\

Say you first picked Voltar, and so the enemy team went Frog to counter, well now you could pick any of Frog's counters, so on and so forth. I don't agree that it will be easy to invalidate 1st picks.

Say you 1st picked a naut that you intended to carry with, let's say Skolldir. And the enemy team goes full out counters, 3 skolldir counters would include like Yuri, Nibbs, Genji. Well first that comp doesn't have much synergy anyways, but that opens your own team up to a bunch of counter picking with much more synergy.



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Quote:

I don't need to do a nautsdraft to disagree with you in any regard, and it's honestly that elitist attitude that deters players from being either competitive or interested in it at all, myself included.


You don't have to try drafting to accept/reject my specific version of it, but to reject drafting in any form without trying it all is a different story. It's only reasonable to expect someone to at least briefly give something a chance before dismissing it. I fail to see how such an expectation is in anyway elitist, if there is something I'm overlooking please enlighten me.

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 Post subject: Re: Make a draft mode already
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:34 am 
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Quote:
If you want to look up my Nauts drafter, it's anything with team WWJVDD? Just to satisfy your "my opinion is better cause I use nautsdrafter.com" quota.


Can you quote me where I said this? Where did I say "my opinion is better than yours unless you've drafted once". I'm pretty sure literally all I did was point out the naysayers to drafting haven't give it a chance. Gee lilicours what a criminal thing for me to point out, maybe that got some panties twisted in a knot because people know I'm right, but frankly people aren't at least giving it a CHANCE and trying it once aren't be very fair imo

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 Post subject: Re: Make a draft mode already
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:39 am 
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eddster27 wrote:
Xelrog wrote:
I could say nothing. Or I could be a nice guy and tell you why I didn't read it, since if I'm not bothered, that invariably means other people aren't either, and if you went through the trouble of typing it you probably want it to be read. Here I'm investing my time in trying to help you communicate what you want to communicate, but if you'd prefer I can just leave your post to obscurity, and leave you in the dark wondering why people aren't reading it.

Do what you like, think what you like. I will continue to unabashedly not read posts that fail to hold my interest and be as vocal as I please about it. I'll also recommend that you folks take some rhetoric classes to better understand the responsibility of the arguer in delivering an argument. :CocoWink:


sorry I didn't read all this so I will just assume you are being pretentious again


you're also probably safe to assume he is reading all the posts, i seriously doubt he's not

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 Post subject: Re: Make a draft mode already
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:28 pm 
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Smite has a 3v3 ranked draft system, just saying it's plausible. Also I think all of the major MOBAs except Overwatch and potentially HOTS have even a casual draft system, though don't quote me on HOTS as I've never actually played it.

I mean we could argue people just want to play the game and that's fine, but I've found myself going over to Draft once I tried it on League and I wasn't even a level 30 account at the time and enjoyed it far more. My experience is different most likely but we're brow beating people into shaming someone for wanting a draft, and doing likewise to the people who don't want it.

I don't know if it's even possible with the current number of playerbase we have but why can't we have both?


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 Post subject: Re: Make a draft mode already
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:31 am 
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MrPillowTheGreat wrote:
Quote:
If you want to look up my Nauts drafter, it's anything with team WWJVDD? Just to satisfy your "my opinion is better cause I use nautsdrafter.com" quota.


Can you quote me where I said this? Where did I say "my opinion is better than yours unless you've drafted once". I'm pretty sure literally all I did was point out the naysayers to drafting haven't give it a chance. Gee lilicours what a criminal thing for me to point out, maybe that got some panties twisted in a knot because people know I'm right, but frankly people aren't at least giving it a CHANCE and trying it once aren't be very fair imo


It's just unreasonable to ask for this since as people have stated, it's a bit unreasonable to want to change the game to accommodate the few.

Remember, you, I, and everyone else who would love a draft system are the minority. So the chance that those who disagree with a draft system have a least tried it is slim to none. Gotta admit though drafting is fun and should be tried by everyone once if they want to get a feel for truly competitive awesomenauts. If you don't think you need a draft for competitive gameplay, it's a matter of ignorance at this point. Even premade vs premade doesn't compare. It's a new high. Haha.

Anyways... If there was a 3 person no ban draft, I would suggest a ABBAAB draft setup.

Yeah maybe the first player gets countered, but so do the two people who counterpicked. If the team is balanced skill wise, it shouldn't be an issue.

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 Post subject: Re: Make a draft mode already
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:13 am 
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I'm not opposed to adding a draft system to Awesomenauts but I do see potential issues in adding this system to nauts as is. Most of which have already been voiced up to this point.

My main concern is that it may affect the matchmaking even further than all the recent tweaks and F2P brought to this game. The only recommendations I've seen so far regarding how to implement drafting into the online que so far are as follows.

1. Add it to online matches

2. Add a separate draft queue

3. Add drafting to league 1-2 players

The only one that I don't have an issue with is number 2. I agree that the RNG of the current online system can frustrate some players but as has already been stated, there is credence to the alternative argument that drafts can also cause issues for new players in so far as they can intimidate and cause issues with how nauts are unlocked for people coming into the game.

Number three also causes issues in so far as league 2 fluctuates in size as the player base increases. There can be several players in leagues 2-1 who are just casual players. This can bring frustration in so far as some people in higher leagues may not want a drafting system. Alternatively, players in lower leagues might desire to play with the drafting system, but be restricted out of it because they aren't high enough on the leaderboards. It's forcing a system on people who may or may not want it in the first place. Some people higher up might regret advancing into higher leagues and people lower down might be more discouraged than they already are.

The only option left is having a separate queue for drafting which I object to in the current state of nauts. The matchmaking really doesn't need to be segregated any more than it already is. People in both queues would have less total options for the MMS to work with, decreasing MM quality. If nauts had a larger playerbase, I wouldn't mind this change, but as is, I don't think it will do any good for the community.

On a different, but realted topic

I'm not certain why the OP is arguing that lack of drafts is the thing sending players off. I can only think of 2 people who have left while complaining about that issue as one of the reasons they are leaving. Additionally, the only people I ever see complaining about it is a small amount of the already small section of the community that actually uses drafts.

My money on the lack of retention is still due to non-rewarding leaderboards. I don't think I need to remind anyone of the 1-2 "leaderboards are awful" threads a month we get that are far more frequent than the "add drafing" threads.

I also disagree that the RNG is turning people away since the element of the RNG people doesn't like is getting countered. Additionally, adding drafts to fix that is just bad policy since A. counters will still exist in a draft system and B. Some people can only play certain nauts, causing new problems.

Some league 1-2ers play literally one character only. The player Notsee gained top 5 multiple times playing exclusively Ted McPain for example. Others can only play a handful of nauts well. While it is true that you can continuously pick counters throughout the draft, eliminating the crapshoot nature of counters as they currently are in-game, this won't eliminate RNG from the online queue as some players, even in high leagues, can't counter pick due to who they are able to play. The system will favor players who can play multiple nauts and curse both players who can't play multiple nauts AND their teammates as they won't have the ideal counter pick regardless of the increased skill of their teammate.

The issue with blaming RNG for ruining a competitive experience is really on the fault of the player's mentality towards their performance. Anytime someone is playing in a system with RNG, equating skill with victory of the individual match is not only flawed but only leads to blaming RNG for their lack of progress instead of their own failures. If you think that losing a match due to getting countered via RNG makes the game bad, you are very mistaken and have the wrong outlook on how to measure your own skill in the system provided to you. If RNG giving one person an advantage makes a game unfit for competition than professional poker wouldn't exist. If you're playing in a system with RNG and advantages, look towards average performance instead. The best poker players are the players who are able to gain the most consistent wins despite having a poor hand for most of the match. The best Awesomenauts players will likewise have the best performance making the most of the times they a disadvantage.

In the end, you won't be rid of RNG disadvantages in the online queue by adding drafts. Now we have RNG that sometimes gives someone a disadvantage when the enemy player counters them. Adding a draft just changes it so that RNG sometimes gives someone a disadvantage when their teammates won't/are unable to perform the ideal strategy in the draft due to who they are capable of playing well.

So not only are we back to square one by failing to solve the problem, but we also decrease the quality of the matchmaking to boot.

In short, don't add drafts right now.

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 Post subject: Re: Make a draft mode already
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 1:06 pm 
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On-topic: I could see a draft system working, although roster limitations would be an issue (where games like Dota do not suffer from that). I would need to give it some actual, in-depth thought, because what was said before makes sense as well.

Off-topic: It is approximately 580 words.

The lower end of the reading speed is 250 words per minute.

Do not say you cannot find, in your infinitely busy and chaotic day, two minutes and ~19 seconds to do Pillow the courtesy and read what they have written.

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 Post subject: Re: Make a draft mode already
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:23 pm 
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The Lord Protector wrote:
On-topic: I could see a draft system working, although roster limitations would be an issue (where games like Dota do not suffer from that). I would need to give it some actual, in-depth thought, because what was said before makes sense as well.

Off-topic: It is approximately 580 words.

The lower end of the reading speed is 250 words per minute.

Do not say you cannot find, in your infinitely busy and chaotic day, two minutes and ~19 seconds to do Pillow the courtesy and read what they have written.

He spent few times more time to complain why he didn't read the whole post than it would take him to do so but let's not change this topic to "Xelrog cannot read" ok?

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 Post subject: Re: Make a draft mode already
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:05 pm 
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I agree with pillow. Give new players more chars and a draft system would be great.

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 Post subject: Re: Make a draft mode already
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:16 pm 
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Diz Hydron wrote:
The only recommendations I've seen so far regarding how to implement drafting into the online que so far are as follows.

1. Add it to online matches

2. Add a separate draft queue

3. Add drafting to league 1-2 players



You listed these three and we have essentially ruled out #1 because I don't think anyone can make a compelling argument to make that so. You also listed many reasons as to why 2 and 3 don't work which I agree with almost entirely. Firstly, yes. League 2 is way too large. No one can deny this. The skill gap between upper league 2 vs its league 2 counterpart in the 6500's is absurd. If we were to even consider doing option 3 (which I am in favor of btw), that league size would have to be addressed. This potentially brings up another issue of if drafting is in league 1&2 only, you run the potential of destroying matchmaking for those two leagues. I'll explain what I mean because I technically am part of the problem too.

I sit right outside of league one and have not played in weeks. That spot would qualify as the draft reserved section of the Leaderboards. It would taken up by an inactive account. The problem I'm trying poorly to explain is that if we do something like option 3 and leagues 1&2 have a bunch of inactives, players will be looking at long ass queue times. It would just infuriate everyone. If something like option 3 were to exist, we need both a league 2 resize and a leaderboard rank decay or removal after x amount of inactivity (think rocket league).

Lastly, you used an example of a player that got really high in the Leaderboards spamming one naut saying this change will not favor those who are not diverse in Nauts. That. Is. Why. I. Want. Drafts.

I've heard the argument before a long time ago in a different thread "what's more fun? Playing many Nauts or just the one you're really good at?" it was a question that sparked a lot of debate because there were valid answers on both sides. I can use my own experience to help get where I'm trying to go here. I play coco. A lot. Probably why I'm bordering league 1 anyway. Do I deserve that spot though? The competitive side of me would say no. Someone who is more diverse and skilled with many Nauts deserves it more than I do. A draft system would prove that hands down. Someone more diverse should statistically win more matches since they are more adaptive to different matchups. Therefore they should be higher on the Leaderboards right? So what I'm trying to say is although it's great you can make it so high on the Leaderboards with one naut, I would like the Leaderboards to mean something again. Give them significance. If it means I have to face the hard truth that I actually suck at Nauts overall, then so be it.

But, like I said. Many people will justify that there is a direct relationship between playing the naut you want, when you want, and as much as you want to the amount fun you have in the game. I couldn't agree more. A draft system somewhat challenges that mentality and that is why I think a lot of people are opposed along with other practical reasons of course. But I still think that is an underlying issue we're overlooking in this discussion. I am willing to accept that though. I feel it's time to add a little more fuel to the fire that is the competitive scene. We can't just have Alexeus and all those wonderful community members that organize these events do all the work. Just my two cents...

I did somewhat derail this into another "fix the Leaderboards" thing but if any implementation of the sort is going to take place, it should come as a package.

I know you also mentioned those in upper leagues that don't want draft vs those in lower that do. I read it but don't have a valid answer just yet. I'm not just ignoring it. Lol

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