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 Post subject: Leaderboard/League System Revamp
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:54 pm 
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Win "Percentage" Based Leagues

Matchmaking still happens based on rating. Rating never resets or decays. Leagues, however, are completely different.

Everyone starts in league 9. Winning a game earns you 1 Point. Losing games loses points. Reach 10 points, and you advance a league and your points are reset to 0!

Every month, we start a new season and everyone drops 2 leagues. Players are awarded a number of awesome points/dropped parts, along with a profile picture/badge at season end based on what league they reached.

  • League 9: Losses earn 0.5 points.
  • League 8: Losses lose 0 points.
  • League 7: Losses lose 0.25 points.
  • League 6: Losses lose 0.5 points.
  • League 5: Losses lose 0.75 points.
  • League 4: Losses lose 1 point.
  • League 3: Losses lose 1.5 points.
  • League 2: Losses lose 2 points.

Points cannot drop below 0, and you cannot fall down leagues outside of new seasons. Once you get to a League, you can't lose your progress!

To prevent abuse, whenever a player quits a game early and fails to rejoin, they will receive a 50% point earning penalty for the next 3 games.

In League 1, we reintroduce the current leaderboard system as a season specific League 1 Ranking. Once you reach league 1, your rating for the current season will be publicly visible in the League 1 Leaderboard, and you can see how you compare to the rest of the players in league 1! (Note that this would be a separate value from your true lifetime rating used to determine matchmaking, so the league 1 leaderboard would be completely fresh each season)

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Some data:
Based on the points earned/lost for wins/losses, and assuming infinite games played, each league above L8 represents a specific win percentage range:
  • League 7 is below 20% win rate.
  • League 6 is between 20 and 33%.
  • League 5 is between 33 and 43%.
  • League 4 is between 43 and 50%.
  • League 3 is between 50 and 60%.
  • League 2 is between 60 and 67%.
  • League 1 is above 67% win rate.

Goals:
The goal of this suggestion is to introduce a few missing elements to the current leaderboard system:
  • A natural decay method. Since the current leaderboard is tied solely to rating, there can be no decay without matchmaking issues. In the new system, everyone naturally decays every month.
  • An attainable monthly progression goal. While maintaining the percentages listed above may not be feasible for all players, every player can set out to go on a winning streak to reach their goals.
  • A method of allowing players to work on their bad nauts without being punished by the league system.
  • A visible way for the top level players to continue to fight for the #1 spot in the game. This is an important aspect of the current leaderboards that we need to preserve even if we rework leagues.

Please post thoughts/concerns. All numbers are hypothetical to try to gauge how the system might work.


Last edited by redria7 on Thu Jul 20, 2017 6:47 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Leaderboard Revamp
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:13 pm 
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So does this completely get rid of rank then? I don't see how this would account for showing the top X players, since it's more of an achievement based system.

Can point balances go negative? If not this creates an environment where there's no penalty for loss if you just entered a league (I.e. Rage quit 10 times in a row til I get the perfect matchup)


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 Post subject: Re: Leaderboard Revamp
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:27 pm 
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robochase6000 wrote:
So does this completely get rid of rank then? I don't see how this would account for showing the top X players, since it's more of an achievement based system.

Can point balances go negative? If not this creates an environment where there's no penalty for loss if you just entered a league (I.e. Rage quit 10 times in a row til I get the perfect matchup)

It gets rid of rank, and point balances cannot go negative. However, it does not get rid of rating, and it does not get rid of matchmaking lockout. To further avoid the rage quit problem, it could even be implemented with potential league loss for excessive quitting in a month, or reduced point earning for X games after quitting a match.

You're right that it doesn't show the top X players. It does, however, give a decent idea, and we can improve on that.

Consider, to hit league 1 you'd have to be able to beat a 67% win percentage with a diverse naut pool, or better than 75% as a one naut wonder. That's already pretty much league 1 standards, but implemented based off a singular achievement instead of a constant grind.

To appease the best of the best who want that front-page rating, we could make a leaderboard similar to the current one that just shows league 1 players. So once you hit league 1, you can relax and play for fun, or you can try to grind up your league 1 rank. This keeps a visible goal even for players in the highest league (think hearthstone legendary).


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 Post subject: Re: Leaderboard Revamp
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:01 pm 
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I don't dislike your idea, but the numbers are just off.

You're making a system where players need to have more than 66.66% winrate in order to ever reach L2. For most soloqueuers, that's already pretty high. Now let's assume you have 70% winrate, that still means the grind from L3 to L2 is going to take 200 games. 200 games in a month time in order to climb up one league, that's not what you call a 'progression system'. That's what you call a 'frustrating grindfest'. It means you need to play like 2.5 hours a day in order to reach L2, let alone you need to do that another time to reach L1, read: play 5 hours a day (ignoring the weird 'play all 'nauts mechanic, that is a bad idea).

With these numbers, only duoqueues/premades would ever get to reach L2 and L1, while I wouldn't mind that personally, it's honestly a very bad call in terms of game design. By adjusting the numbers though, that problem can easily be fixed and the idea would work.

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Last edited by Zold on Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Leaderboard Revamp
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:04 pm 
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Zold wrote:
I don't dislike your idea, but the numbers are just off.

You're making a system where players need to have more than 66.66% winrate in order to ever reach L2. For most soloqueuers, that's already pretty high. Now let's assume you have 70% winrate, that still means the grind from L3 to L2 is going to take 200 games. 200 games in a month time in order to climb up one league, that's not what you call a 'progression system'. That's what you call a 'frustrating grindfest'. It means you need to play like 2.5 hours a day in order to reach L2, let alone you need to do that another time to reach L1, read: play 5 hours a day.

With these numbers, only duoqueues/premades would ever get to reach L2 and L1, while I wouldn't mind that personally, it's honestly a very bad call in terms of game design.


So we adjust the numbers and I update OP. I just came up with these on the fly.

I can look at better numbers tonight if you don't have any to suggest for now.

What do you think aside from that?


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 Post subject: Re: Leaderboard Revamp
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:13 pm 
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Aside from that I think it's a cool idea, except for the weird penalty you're giving players when they don't rotate 'nauts enough in L1. I also think it would be nice if at the end of a season you gained a profile medal, Awesomepoints and Droppod parts based on your highest league.

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 Post subject: Re: Leaderboard Revamp
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:20 pm 
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Zold wrote:
Aside from that I think it's a cool idea, except for the weird penalty you're giving players when they don't rotate 'nauts enough in L1. I also think it would be nice if at the end of a season you gained a profile medal, Awesomepoints and Droppod parts based on your highest league.

I totally agree on the rewards at month end. I'll put that in.

The penalty is when they're trying to reach league 1. My thought was that league 2 should be great players, while league 1 is great diverse players. Without that, there'd have to be some other number penalty to reach league 1, like reaching 30 points, or losing 3 in a loss. Otherwise it's just doing the same thing you did to reach league 2, again. I'm open to more easily explained alternatives.


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 Post subject: Re: Leaderboard Revamp
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:41 pm 
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redria7 wrote:
It gets rid of rank, and point balances cannot go negative. However, it does not get rid of rating, and it does not get rid of matchmaking lockout. To further avoid the rage quit problem, it could even be implemented with potential league loss for excessive quitting in a month, or reduced point earning for X games after quitting a match.


i dunno...even if you curb quitting, people can and will still purposefully throw games if there's no penalty, and you will have an impossible time proving they're abusing it.

since this is decoupled from actual Player Rating, i feel like there's going to be some weird opportunities in the system where you can bring your rating way down to like league 8 caliber and then skate through some easy wins to move up ranks.

i guess the nice thing about this system is that it's more of a participation ribbon than an actual leaderboard, so if people want to game their way into league 1 like this, at least it's not at the expense of other people (well, aside from games they might purposefully be throwing)

i'm not trying to shoot your idea down. i think a lot of people would really be into something like this. i personally enjoy climbing and falling down a real, ranked leaderboard and don't see a good reason to change it. i'm also the type that doesn't really play games for achievements, which is what this system sounds a bit like. i know some people go crazy for that stuff, so whatever. i'm not going to tell people how to have fun. i'll still probably enjoy the game if the leaderboard is ripped out.


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 Post subject: Re: Leaderboard Revamp
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:02 pm 
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robochase6000 wrote:
i dunno...even if you curb quitting, people can and will still purposefully throw games if there's no penalty, and you will have an impossible time proving they're abusing it.

since this is decoupled from actual Player Rating, i feel like there's going to be some weird opportunities in the system where you can bring your rating way down to like league 8 caliber and then skate through some easy wins to move up ranks.


A possible solution for this could be a rank based barrier for entry for getting into higher leagues. For example, to progress into league 2 there could be a requirement of around 15500 rating. This should discourage trashing your ranking to get higher leagues really easily, as you wouldn't be able to get past league 3 by doing this, which is a league that's attainable even if you're just playing super casually.

Dunno if this is even a good idea, or if it's possible. Just spitballing.

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 Post subject: Re: Leaderboard Revamp
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:11 pm 
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goblins wrote:
robochase6000 wrote:
i dunno...even if you curb quitting, people can and will still purposefully throw games if there's no penalty, and you will have an impossible time proving they're abusing it.

since this is decoupled from actual Player Rating, i feel like there's going to be some weird opportunities in the system where you can bring your rating way down to like league 8 caliber and then skate through some easy wins to move up ranks.


A possible solution for this could be a rank based barrier for entry for getting into higher leagues. For example, to progress into league 2 there could be a requirement of around 15500 rating. This should discourage trashing your ranking to get higher leagues really easily, as you wouldn't be able to get past league 3 by doing this, which is a league that's attainable even if you're just playing super casually.

Dunno if this is even a good idea, or if it's possible. Just spitballing.


I'd just put in a punishment that leaving a game early gives you reduced point earning potential for your next couple games on top of the existing queue lockout system.

I don't really like the idea of a rating barrier. The idea here is that technically anyone could reach league 1 if they get a series of really great win streaks. Will they probably also have a high rating? Yeah. But I'm not a fan of an artificial limit like that.

Besides, if we put in a league 1 leaderboard for those who make it to L1, everyone will be able to see your trash rating. If there are egregious problems, they could be handled then.


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