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 Post subject: Vinnie balance solutions
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 5:40 pm 
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Joined: Sat May 24, 2014 7:51 pm
Posts: 1117
Location: Lithuania, EU
i don't personally find Vinnie's damage output to be overwhelming, but i do have issues with his design being left unchanged along with all other solar-farming cheeze items and not particularly good cloud row. here are my suggestions/propositions.

Spike Dive
- Antique Machinegun replaced - 1.2 seconds of silence on Dive. 1 stage, 185 solar.
- Dead Seahorse Head changed - 8 DoT on the initial set of Spikes. 2 stages, 150 solar.
- Alien Abduction Kit changed - 15 flat lifesteal per target, WORKS WITH DOUBLE DIVE. 1 stage, 175 solar.
- Rigged Casino Games changed option #1 - -15% damage. 1 stage, 190 solar.
- Rigged Casino Games changed option #2 - gives a second, 0 damage Spike Dive after 1.5 seconds. 1 stage, 190 solar.

Smoke Screen
- self-stun removed.
- base damage added to the cloud. 1.5 damage, 200 attack speed.
- Red Bandana replaced - +1.5 damage. 2 stages, 165 solar.
- Rockeeter changed - size increase removed, duration +0.8 seconds. 2 stages, 150 solar.
- Rubber Mask replaced - heal 1 hp per second for every enemy in cloud, 2 hp (?) for every enemy naut in cloud. 1 stage, 135 solar.

Bubble Gun
- Loanshark replaced - every third (?) set of bubbles applies 5% slow, 0.8 seconds. ALL 3 BUBBLES STACK FOR A MAXIMUM OF 15% SLOW. 1 stage, 135 solar. Loanshark breaks your legs, see, can't run so fast anymore.

Utility
- Solar Krab Burgers replaced for Med-i-can. also, now Vinnie has an actual reason/freedom to use BKM/Piggy.

notes
- solar items are broken by design, especially with fewer nauts actually having access to them now. it is borderline mandatory, it gives you money for playing passive and makes builds homogenic by requiring multiple items to be effective thus not leaving room for choice.
- having % on damage upgrades makes em depend on flat bonuses, however -% seems reasonable to try and make double dive more or less an option. please give feedback on more ways to make it more viable without resorting to "bring back cooldown" after asking for double dive to come back for so long.
- Loanshark replacement idea is very experimental, please give feedback on it. i find it comparable to Leon's toolkit, given similar roles of both nauts, one exception being Vinnie can't really chase now, he has some options now.

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Last edited by fauxhb on Tue Mar 31, 2015 9:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Vinnie balance solutions
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 6:44 pm 
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Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2013 1:08 pm
Posts: 103
I like the idea of putting a simple heal on the cloud with Rubber Mask (no more abusing Gnaw's weeds), but I really don't think he's in such a bad state that he'd need such an overhaul.


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 Post subject: Re: Vinnie balance solutions
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 6:53 pm 
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Posts: 434
fauxhb wrote:
i don't personally find Vinnie's damage output to be overwhelming, but i do have issues with his design being left unchanged along with all other solar-farming cheeze items and not particularly good cloud row. here are my suggestions/propositions.

Spike Dive
- Antique Machinegun replaced - 0.8 seconds of silence on Dive. 1 stage, 160 solar.


I don't like the idea of removing the radius upgrade. I feel it has a place among the upgrades, especially so since the game itself can be a laggy mess at times. This upgrade helps to deal with the said laggy mess.

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Did you know that ronimo has over THREE employees, each of which has over 10 hours of experience in nauts? And you think that YOU, a simple player, know better? You're completely and utterly wrong.

irrzir wrote:
Also, your Yuri is pretty solid

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 Post subject: Re: Vinnie balance solutions
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 7:01 pm 
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Greelin wrote:
fauxhb wrote:
i don't personally find Vinnie's damage output to be overwhelming, but i do have issues with his design being left unchanged along with all other solar-farming cheeze items and not particularly good cloud row. here are my suggestions/propositions.

Spike Dive
- Antique Machinegun replaced - 0.8 seconds of silence on Dive. 1 stage, 160 solar.


I don't like the idea of removing the radius upgrade. I feel it has a place among the upgrades, especially so since the game itself can be a laggy mess at times. This upgrade helps to deal with the said laggy mess.


Coupled with the laggy Vinnie though...

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 Post subject: Re: Vinnie balance solutions
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 7:04 pm 
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Saxonrau Esq. wrote:
Greelin wrote:
fauxhb wrote:
i don't personally find Vinnie's damage output to be overwhelming, but i do have issues with his design being left unchanged along with all other solar-farming cheeze items and not particularly good cloud row. here are my suggestions/propositions.

Spike Dive
- Antique Machinegun replaced - 0.8 seconds of silence on Dive. 1 stage, 160 solar.


I don't like the idea of removing the radius upgrade. I feel it has a place among the upgrades, especially so since the game itself can be a laggy mess at times. This upgrade helps to deal with the said laggy mess.


Coupled with the laggy Vinnie though...


What more important to balance around, a player or the game?

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omnimpotent wrote:
Did you know that ronimo has over THREE employees, each of which has over 10 hours of experience in nauts? And you think that YOU, a simple player, know better? You're completely and utterly wrong.

irrzir wrote:
Also, your Yuri is pretty solid

STEAM


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 Post subject: Re: Vinnie balance solutions
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 7:11 pm 
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Greelin wrote:
I don't like the idea of removing the radius upgrade. I feel it has a place among the upgrades, especially so since the game itself can be a laggy mess at times. This upgrade helps to deal with the said laggy mess.


Or abuse said laggy messes.

Overall don't like the changes. You're making all his upgrades weak and cheap. I don't mind the change to loanshark and I agree of changing solar krab for med'i'can.

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 Post subject: Re: Vinnie balance solutions
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 8:08 pm 
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Location: Lithuania, EU
iForgotMyUserName wrote:
Greelin wrote:
I don't like the idea of removing the radius upgrade. I feel it has a place among the upgrades, especially so since the game itself can be a laggy mess at times. This upgrade helps to deal with the said laggy mess.


Or abuse said laggy messes.

Overall don't like the changes. You're making all his upgrades weak and cheap. I don't mind the change to loanshark and I agree of changing solar krab for med'i'can.

core - damage - stays the same. more utility options which are not overkill. for example, right now silence+size or even silence cloud alone is overkill that shuts down any fight for way, way too long.

my reasoning for some of the things:
- silence is an assassin-suitable option, yes, but silence on cloud has been widely recognized as too much. putting it on Dive makes it easy to manage single number. 0.8 seconds is ~half the duration of Leon's stealth, however, Vinnie has the AoE and flight to utilize it.
- range on Dive, no matter how much i love to abuse it, is hilariously broken, you don't need to aim Dive anymore, it makes it TOO easy to land without retribution and reaches way too far behind the turret.
- 98 burst option has been slightly toned down - how come that's a bad thing? 86 is not a bad number considering Vinnie's role and capabilities. number itself is up to discussion, i just feel a flat upgrade is better, triple dmg is just ew as a concept (see: Frog) and it gives enemies at least a second or two to counteract the devastating burst under critical conditions.
- solar cloud = broken. buy silence early and you can't even be punished for farming. don't you get like 40 solar a minute for putting the cloud on top of a pair of droids? that's almost 2.5x more powerful than the ol' Solar Tree.
- prices overall are up for discussion, of course. along with the power of upgrades, especially new ones. it may be too cheap, yes.
- damage on cloud, btw, is a good concept, just the numbers need tweaking. right now it's both stronger and bigger than Genji's Storm Drum but on a longer cooldown. good option for area control/pressure.

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Steam | Vinnie rework (v2.9) | Derpl rework (v2.11)

in <3 with: :drool: :shrug: :think:


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 Post subject: Re: Vinnie balance solutions
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 10:05 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2013 4:07 am
Posts: 460
The only thing you need to do to make vinnie balanced it to reduce his AA damage against droids and turrets.

Then he'll be an assassin, instead of an assassin AND best tower attacker in the game.


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