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 Post subject: Re: community balancing document for incoming changes
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 5:05 pm 
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Yeah good players can be biased but at least they know things are busted when people try to defend them.

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 Post subject: Re: community balancing document for incoming changes
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 5:22 pm 
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My point of concern is how do we determine the priority of changes needed. Everyone is currently on the ayla and scoop bandwagon but they are very versatile nauts and IMO its worse leaving the polarizing mechanically unbalanced nauts as they are since nerfing top tiers currently brings the whole game back down with nerf cycles.

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 Post subject: Re: community balancing document for incoming changes
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 5:23 pm 
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I'm gonna be as blunt as possible in this post and explain why I think what's currently going on with this is a terrible idea. You might as well for all intents and purposes just call this a betanauts revival attempt but it's a lot worse because of the people in control of it (granted there were a few in the original betanauts, but the majority were top players). I'm not trying to be horrible here but you've elected to use two league 2s and a league 3 to traffic ideas and suggestions and that just isn't good enough.

If Ronimo wants to do something like this, leave it in control of the really good players, let's say.. people who get into quarterfinals and above in recent tournaments. These are people who understand why a character is broken, and what needs to be done to address it, their strengths, weaknesses, teamplay elements and everything else about characters from competitive experience. This is why I'm not complaining about eddster or symbol guy (I have no clue what to use as an actual name for this guy - your new name is wacky inflatable flailing tube man) having a moderation position in such a thing. Worrying about competitive players shaping the game to their own vision is not something that you should ever be worried about -- newsflash, they play solo too like the rest of us, it's not some world unknown to them.

Next, I want to point out that the concept of this isn't even being followed from what is described in the original post. I wanted to check up on what was being talked about since this is supposedly a community thing, and apparently in the first 1 hour of discord chat things like "skolldir shouldn't have stun", "vinnie's codfather is op", "bull hitbox needs increasing" and "yellow snow cone is a severe balance issue" and I kinda cracked up laughing. Wasn't the idea to take in community suggestions and congregate them into one easy to read format for Ronimo to implement that everyone agrees with? This is kinda why making a community driven balance sheet fails compared to just grouping up great players and asking them for input. For instance if good players were put in charge of this and a complaint came through saying yellow cone was too good, everyone would have a laugh and a jolly jig around a campfire because it has proven itself to be a non issue in competitive and in pubs.

I'm pretty sure nobody has complained about codfather for the last 6 months, every top player realises stunpunch isn't one of the issues skolldir needs addressed (it's height quake and deflect), and no successful scoop player in comp ever uses cone because it's a below average item. If I had to guess the next wave of suggestions I can just imagine it being stupid stuff like "ix/swig is too weak, buff them", "raelynn got overbuffed", "sentry shouldn't be able to face burst" and "jimmy's entire character design needs a rework" if those are things already being seriously discussed. These changes don't really look in the grand scheme of things and feel like you're just changing items because they're picked a lot and make the character.

To summarise I think that if anything like this is to be done, it has to be done by players instantly recognised for their skill and success in competitive which follows through to pubs (ever noticed how all great comp players are league 1 with tons of games played? yeah). If a great player comes along here and posts a suggestion for something they have to go through an airport security check and discussion about their idea and await approval by people who aren't as good as them, which just feels wrong.

PS: Why is a disarm suggestion even in that thing? That's not related to balance in any way, I didn't realise this was a post your new CC effect ideas document. It doesn't relate to balance at all and has no place being there since no suggestions have been made to implement disarm on any character in the first place.

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 Post subject: Re: community balancing document for incoming changes
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 5:31 pm 
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Sam! wrote:
I'm gonna be as blunt as possible in this post and explain why I think what's currently going on with this is a terrible idea. You might as well for all intents and purposes just call this a betanauts revival attempt but it's a lot worse because of the people in control of it (granted there were a few in the original betanauts, but the majority were top players). I'm not trying to be horrible here but you've elected to use two league 2s and a league 3 to traffic ideas and suggestions and that just isn't good enough.


One of the best balance docs that was made was created by the top 3 teams after Awesome brawl. It had good suggestions with solid reasoning behind it. (and every post was relevant and meaningful.)

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 Post subject: Re: community balancing document for incoming changes
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 5:39 pm 
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Sam! wrote:
I'm gonna be as blunt as possible in this post and explain why I think what's currently going on with this is a terrible idea. You might as well for all intents and purposes just call this a betanauts revival attempt but it's a lot worse because of the people in control of it (granted there were a few in the original betanauts, but the majority were top players). I'm not trying to be horrible here but you've elected to use two league 2s and a league 3 to traffic ideas and suggestions and that just isn't good enough.

If Ronimo wants to do something like this, leave it in control of the really good players, let's say.. people who get into quarterfinals and above in recent tournaments. These are people who understand why a character is broken, and what needs to be done to address it, their strengths, weaknesses, teamplay elements and everything else about characters from competitive experience. This is why I'm not complaining about eddster or symbol guy (I have no clue what to use as an actual name for this guy - your new name is wacky inflatable flailing tube man) having a moderation position in such a thing. Worrying about competitive players shaping the game to their own vision is not something that you should ever be worried about -- newsflash, they play solo too like the rest of us, it's not some world unknown to them.

Next, I want to point out that the concept of this isn't even being followed from what is described in the original post. I wanted to check up on what was being talked about since this is supposedly a community thing, and apparently in the first 1 hour of discord chat things like "skolldir shouldn't have stun", "vinnie's codfather is op", "bull hitbox needs increasing" and "yellow snow cone is a severe balance issue" and I kinda cracked up laughing. Wasn't the idea to take in community suggestions and congregate them into one easy to read format for Ronimo to implement that everyone agrees with? This is kinda why making a community driven balance sheet fails compared to just grouping up great players and asking them for input. For instance if good players were put in charge of this and a complaint came through saying yellow cone was too good, everyone would have a laugh and a jolly jig around a campfire because it has proven itself to be a non issue in competitive and in pubs.

I'm pretty sure nobody has complained about codfather for the last 6 months, every top player realises stunpunch isn't one of the issues skolldir needs addressed (it's height quake and deflect), and no successful scoop player in comp ever uses cone because it's a below average item. If I had to guess the next wave of suggestions I can just imagine it being stupid stuff like "ix/swig is too weak, buff them", "raelynn got overbuffed", "sentry shouldn't be able to face burst" and "jimmy's entire character design needs a rework" if those are things already being seriously discussed. These changes don't really look in the grand scheme of things and feel like you're just changing items because they're picked a lot and make the character.

To summarise I think that if anything like this is to be done, it has to be done by players instantly recognised for their skill and success in competitive which follows through to pubs (ever noticed how all great comp players are league 1 with tons of games played? yeah). If a great player comes along here and posts a suggestion for something they have to go through an airport security check and discussion about their idea and await approval by people who aren't as good as them, which just feels wrong.

PS: Why is a disarm suggestion even in that thing? That's not related to balance in any way, I didn't realise this was a post your new CC effect ideas document. It doesn't relate to balance at all and has no place being there since no suggestions have been made to implement disarm on any character in the first place.

Get them to come talk here and to not be apprehensive to opposing opinions. I also do not want to be governed completely by competitive players or worse is that they will say anything and sheep will follow just cause without using any rationality ( Original betanauts 1.0 ). Some players like myself also didn't want to join competitive and don't want the credibility for my suggestions hurt just cause I'm not part of the group. I want my suggestions looked at from a neutral standpoint which is the respect I give to everyone. If you disagree explain why and if you agree explain why.

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 Post subject: Re: community balancing document for incoming changes
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 6:01 pm 
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@Sam: I don't keep up with the tournament people, but I'd like to note that it is possible that not all of them solo very often; most people in L1, to retain their positions, don't or use multiple alts.

As for the regulation of this document, I agree with many others that it needs to be moderated by people with experience and who are consistent top players who know nauts well. Additionally, they DO need to be un-biased; I personally hate skolldir but I'm not going to nerf him into the ground just for that reason or to spite him, and I expect the moderators to have this judgement as well.

Similarly, well-formed and validated reasoning needs to be given; already looking at the docs, I see some of the changes don't really have anything other than "make this hitbox larger maybe" and don't really go into detail or explain things very well. ALL elements that go into the character changes need to be given, as sam suggested, including: strengths, weaknesses, team composition factors, general character skillset and mechanics (ex. WASD and their skill reach, movement, and other factors), and more. I understand that's a lot of factors and that people are very busy, but for a tentative balance sheet like this that deals with changing core aspects of gameplay it NEEDS to be detailed accurately.

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 Post subject: Re: community balancing document for incoming changes
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 6:07 pm 
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I'm pretty sure the point was to get different insights on the game.
If you take 4 competitive players, then yes, you'll have picked good players. But you'll only have one insight on it. (Symbol guy is Johnny btw)

And is what buffers the pool of ideas.
Based on your post I'm going to guess that you and Eddster really don't like me (which ehh, whatever, can't like everyone). But I'm sure he can at least attest that I am not afraid to follow suggestions that I don't completely agree with.

Also, if you're going to use the current wall as proof for anything, do remember that we've basically done nothing yet because not all of us are here.
That and the pink changes weren't even made by any of us.

The disarm is there mainly because I randomly mentioned the idea to Jasper.
I thought it was more fair to show that it was something that was mentioned at some point that may or may not be taken under consideration at some point. Doesn't mean it has to be now, or at all implemented.

Also, Vinnie's codfather = op? Where'd you get that from? Nobody said that :derp: .
I did mention codfather, but not that it needed changes.


I'm not sure how franki3's reply ties in to Sam!'s post, but share pretty much this opinion.

frankie3 wrote:
I also do not want to be governed completely by competitive players or worse is that they will say anything and sheep will follow just cause without using any rationality ( Original betanauts 1.0 ). Some players like myself also didn't want to join competitive and don't want the credibility for my suggestions hurt just cause I'm not part of the group. I want my suggestions looked at from a neutral standpoint which is the respect I give to everyone. If you disagree explain why and if you agree explain why.


Though I'm not sure what or who this statement is directed at:
frankie3 wrote:
Get them to come talk here and to not be apprehensive to opposing opinions.



I personally think Eddster covers the competitive part of the community quite well, but maybe that's just me.

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Last edited by Gameinsky on Wed Oct 26, 2016 6:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: community balancing document for incoming changes
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 6:10 pm 
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frankie3 wrote:
Get them to come talk here and to not be apprehensive to opposing opinions. I also do not want to be governed completely by competitive players or worse is that they will say anything and sheep will follow just cause without using any rationality ( Original betanauts 1.0 ). Some players like myself also didn't want to join competitive and don't want the credibility for my suggestions hurt just cause I'm not part of the group. I want my suggestions looked at from a neutral standpoint which is the respect I give to everyone. If you disagree explain why and if you agree explain why.

I'll explain but there's nothing here to agree or disagree on. A lot of them don't come here because a lot of things are very clear-cut in what needs to be done so there's no point having a discussion in the first place (example: silence cloud). In other more opinionated issues where there's a lot more discussion, they don't want to talk to people who aren't on their same skill level because having conversations on inequal skill levels proves futile. Finally, some of them just don't care because they know they're good players that can play multiple characters and can adapt to whatever patches throw at them.

Nobody is forcing people into competitive, it's totally fine if you don't want to, however this is the easiest place to gauge for suitably skilled players to give input on game balance, that's kinda just how it is. People who get results here show they understand team compositions and what individual characters bring to teams and how communicated players can demonstrate much more of a character which is something that pubs just don't provide.

Also please don't quote walls like that lol. Just pick out a paragraph or something.

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 Post subject: Re: community balancing document for incoming changes
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 6:14 pm 
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if people can barely trust the balance forum posting threads, what makes you think people can trust them posting opinions in a balance document?


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 Post subject: Re: community balancing document for incoming changes
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 6:17 pm 
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I agree what Sam! pointed out. I really don't want to sound harsh, but to make the game's balance improve in the best way possible, we need a solid work-force. If we gather skilled competitive players that have qualified in tournaments we have great potential.

From someone who qualified 4th in AwesomeBrawl Weekly (where my team was at it's peak) I feel like I am experienced enough of knowing where balance is lacking. After playing since a few months after release I've seen many good and bad balance decisions over the years and would be willing to improve the current state of balance.

I don't want to sound elitist here, neither exclude people from handling balance, but I think we should prioritize those who have great potential of improving the game by knowing how to reason behind their suggestions. This is also for making it easier to moderate and control.

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