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 Post subject: Re: community balancing document for incoming changes
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 6:18 am 
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this seems kind of horrible.

is everyone (anyone?) allowed to just write stuff into the google doc and then the lords of the spreadsheet decide to delete it?


& really - what is up with some of this stuff?

voltar wrote:
Allow for controlled targeting of drones (possibly popup menu on extra button with list of nauts priority or droids)

lol ok this is so well explained

rae wrote:
Add visual representation to snipe’s charge to show when shooting is available to help new players (see a lot of l3+8/9’s waiting snipe’s full time and missing)

what does this even have to do with balance? (it's a good suggestion sure, but it doesn't have anything to do with balance)

scoop wrote:
Redo Yellow snow cone to be less of a crutch/out of place upgrade, perhaps to an ally based upgrade similar to spoonman

this isn't constructive at all. offer a concrete idea at least. this opinion on yellow snow cone is hardly universally accepted anyways.


vinnie wrote:
Antique machinegun turned into a 1.5 second silence.

1.5 second silence on a deadly AOE attack? :lolstar:


genji wrote:
make cocoon cause cancer in addition to guaranteeing a kill (or just remove from game)

ok this whole google doc idea must officially be a joke and a total waste of time.


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 Post subject: Re: community balancing document for incoming changes
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 7:14 am 
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robochase6000 wrote:
vinnie wrote:
Antique machinegun turned into a 1.5 second silence.

1.5 second silence on a deadly AOE attack? :lolstar:

I don't want to defend this thread but this is exactly what I was talking about with knee jerk reactions to changes. FYI this is the EXACT effect alien abduction kit used to have before it was replaced in patch 1.18, not because it was too strong, but because it was deemed as a underpowered item and in need of replacement and already got a pretty big buff beforehand. The effect is probably a lot better now that the power of his competing upgrades has been reduced but it's likely far from overpowered.

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 Post subject: Re: community balancing document for incoming changes
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 7:56 am 
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Badass Ketchup wrote:
patch 1.18


awesomenauts is not the same game it was 4 years ago.

& that wasn't a knee jerk reaction at all.

the diversity of the spike dive row is already pretty terrible. currently you have 2 damage upgrades and then you have some choice over the last pick. with this change, you'd be a fool not to pick a 1.5s silence over the remaining choices. 100% of the time.

& that's not to mention how stupid this would be in practice. at least with silence cloud, you can step out of it to quickly end the silence. with the suggested change, you're locked into a full 1.5s silence no matter what. on an AOE attack that is stupidly easy to land. (edit: sure i guess you could BKM it down a bit but that's a really lame counter)

so basically spike dive's row loses an alright upgrade and gains an awesome upgrade. & now smoke screen has a free slot to get...another CC upgrade? great. sounds like a monster in the making.

the only interesting thing about this change would be deciding when to buy the silence upgrade...before a damage upgrade? somewhere between your damage upgrade purchases? or after you've bought all your damage upgrades?


(btw since i'm talking about his spike dive diversity problems. the lifesteal upgrade is problematic because it's percentage based. if you're going to maximize that upgrade, it's only ever going to work best with two damage upgrades to back it up. this is a kneejerk reaction just looking over the row)


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 Post subject: Re: community balancing document for incoming changes
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 10:52 am 
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robochase6000 wrote:
& that's not to mention how stupid this would be in practice. at least with silence cloud, you can step out of it to quickly end the silence. with the suggested change, you're locked into a full 1.5s silence no matter what. on an AOE attack that is stupidly easy to land. (edit: sure i guess you could BKM it down a bit but that's a really lame counter)

so basically spike dive's row loses an alright upgrade and gains an awesome upgrade. & now smoke screen has a free slot to get...another CC upgrade? great. sounds like a monster in the making.


And this demonstrates that you really don't know why silence cloud is stupidly strong...

I agree with Ketchup here. There are several occasions when a change has been suggested only for it to be shut down because people think it would be OP when in the past the exact same effect (or sometimes even a stronger version of the effect) was still in the game and it was trash. (looking at you 0.3 second stun pack)

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 Post subject: Re: community balancing document for incoming changes
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 10:53 am 
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First of all BadassKetchup and Robochase, this thread is to present the project, if you intend to discuss about the inputs from the doc, discuss them here or in a new thread, not here.

On a side note :

Quote:
Genji's tasteless joke


that was clearly griefing the objectivity of the doc, and you stop at it like it should be for everything.
But I understand, holding a neutral position must be difficult for everyone here.

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 Post subject: Re: community balancing document for incoming changes
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 10:57 am 
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Sam! wrote:
I'm not trying to be horrible here but you've elected to use two league 2s and a league 3 to traffic ideas and suggestions and that just isn't good enough.


first, having a good game balance sense and being good at the game are completely different things. to give you a rough idea, there are games that are very well balanced on the market and people behind gameplay changes aren't particulary good at playing these games.

very good players can actually propose terrible ideas (even you can amongst many good calls - your suggestions that yoolip should be invulnerable during gaze or lux immune to cc effects during charge just to name the two), as balancing isn't just about understanding meta and having aim, there's more to it - not everyone has imagination to foresee the impact of the changes or ability to think outside the box, it's not always tweaking numbers. of course, you need to have experience either from the developer side of things or as a player, but it's hardly related to your tournament record.

second, i'm not a league 2 player (https://goo.gl/rIeuKS)

finally, if i understand this correctly it's not about forcing views of one moderator into the game, it's more about gathering data, discussions and presenting ideas to Jasper and this isn't permanent position either, so i don't see a reason for cryout. i'd have no problem to ask you, firren or ant for opinions and discussing them on your behalf (even if i disagree with some remarks), but edd practically covers this.

Jasper wrote:
For the initial group Doppel and I would like to ask Gameinsky, ┌ᾮ┘, eddster and Devmon to moderate the suggestions. If they are willing and able.


i'd like to help. i need to finish work project by friday, but after that i'm open for discussions. one question, are we aiming at short-term balance or long-term here?

i personally think that we should go with the short-term balance and focus on most important things only at first, which is adjusting both ends of the spectrum (scoop, sentry, ayla, vinnie on one end and yoolip gnaw on the other one). things i'd like to discuss and not many even here should object:

sentry - fixing starstorm statue bug, addressing dos + cic, nvs discussion (either more expensive or toned down, there are pros and cons to both), lowering bhs gravity just a bit
scoop - addressing halberd, his damage output in general and lack of diversity on bindings row
ayla - rbb / skb, self-damage and improving upgrades like dummy prisoner, thief tools and fiery jawbreakers
vinnie - replacement for red bandana, toning down wpm (range dive + rubber mask can be adressed later, bandana is the most important thing)

also some buffs/very small reworks to gnaw and yoolip but in intelligent way, we certainly don't want them to be pub cancer.

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 Post subject: Re: community balancing document for incoming changes
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 11:04 am 
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┌ᾮ┘ wrote:
Jasper wrote:
For the initial group Doppel and I would like to ask Gameinsky, ┌ᾮ┘, eddster and Devmon to moderate the suggestions. If they are willing and able.


i'd like to help. i need to finish work project by friday, but after that i'm open for discussions. one question, are we aiming at short-term balance or long-term here?

i personally think that we should go with the short-term balance and focus on most important things only at first, which is adjusting both ends of the spectrum (scoop, sentry, ayla, vinnie on one end and yoolip gnaw on the other one). things i'd like to discuss and not many even here should object:

sentry - fixing starstorm statue bug, addressing dos + cic, nvs discussion (either more expensive or toned down, there are pros and cons to both), lowering bhs gravity just a bit
scoop - addressing halberd, his damage output in general and lack of diversity on bindings row
ayla - rbb / skb, self-damage and improving upgrades like dummy prisoner, thief tools and fiery jawbreakers
vinnie - replacement for red bandana, toning down wpm (range dive + rubber mask can be adressed later, bandana is the most important thing)

also some buffs/very small reworks to gnaw and yoolip but in intelligent way, we certainly don't want them to be pub cancer.


The doc will collect and summarize every necessary change that need to be applied for the balancing. With that in mind, even if this make the doc more long-term oriented, first important will be told and discussed with Jasper (so Short-term atst), and then, Jasper will be free to spread every single change in order to avoid disagreement and such.

Quote:
Balance stuff


If you're willing to talk about them, put them into the doc, it's made especially for it.

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Dominik305 wrote:
people who only play meta in any game should be gunned down at the street and skinned alive


CraftedNightmare wrote:
i'm trying to enjoy this *
Doppelganger wrote:
where's my popcorn bag


_olaffff wrote:


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 Post subject: Re: community balancing document for incoming changes
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 12:46 pm 
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Just throwing out my Scoop suggestions here, dont wanna make another thread.

Hammer
-Frozen Hammer, cooldown increased from 7.5 to 8s.
-Snow shovel, heal reduced from 130 to 100 per target.
Bindings
-Add an AOE indicator to the ability.
-Banner of the triple scoop damage reduced from 47 to 35 per second.
-Idol of the ice queen damage reduced from 22% to 20%.
-Penguin throne changed to 30% more damage for the next 3 AA's.
AA
-Make both hits pierce
-Halberd of justice damage reduced from 30% to 25% and duration down from 4s to 3s.

Lowering his burst and safety in exchange for better droid clearing speed seems fair to me. I woulda made suggestions for diversity changes but they aint gonna get into the game anyway so i just focused on his main problems imo. He's still gonna be a massive tank machine but with slightly higher cooldown on his initiation skill and lower burst damage. Maybe more people gonna pick up holy cup + heal over time (idk if that combination is bugged, nautsbuilder says the hot is only 41,54% for allies but should actually be 75%.) then to support their allies and to become even more of a tank. I have no problem to keep him as a beginner naut if he doesnt deal an insane amount of damage that shreds every squishy naut instantly.


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 Post subject: Re: community balancing document for incoming changes
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 1:03 pm 
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TheBoyWonder wrote:
Just throwing out my Scoop suggestions here, dont wanna make another thread.

- changes -


Just put it on the doc, that was the whole purpose of it.

Threads are only for big changes that require a lot of explanation.

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 Post subject: Re: community balancing document for incoming changes
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 1:55 pm 
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I find it kind of wierd people in this game feel like they are somehow entitled to some sort of say in balance. The only reason the community is so involved is because the devs struggle with balance; this isn't some compitition to get *your* say in balance in, it's about finding ways to improve problem areas in the game. There are some community members who have a better understanding of this game so it's only natural they're opinions are more valuable. I really don't see much value in including people in balance who are going to be more detremental by questioning obvious changes and are going to add very little that the top players couldn't come up with.

Anyways, now I've got some time here's my 2cents on balance. This has been on my mind for a while and this topic seems like the perfect place to rabble on about it for a while:

Balance is a complex thing, but I find it best to think of it as making the game "feel balanced" for everybody. Ofc, this is a bit of a pipe dream, people across different skill levels and mindsets have widely differing views on what "feels balanced", and some people will never accept the game as balanced. However, a majority of people's definition of balanced is made up of some of 3 common factors: equal power level, skill/fairness and fun.

Equal power level is about nauts just being equally strong powerwise, and the best way to determine this is through the competitive scene. Balance changes to fix power disparities are normally small, and are the traditional way nauts have been balanced. I see no better way to balance nauts like this than through asking the competitive playerbase, these kind of changes should be making up the majority of the patchnotes. Just small 1 line patch notes for most of the nauts balanced this way, you don't need a balance doc for this, most of the changes are pretty damn obvious to every compotent player. Ronimo should be able to just produce this list by themselves tbh, just by talking to some top competitive players for a while.

Skill/Fairness is about nauts having to put in similar amounts of effort to get the same results. If Gnaw was at an equal power level as other nauts, he would be fairly unfair to lower skill players, since Gnaw can function by just aiming all his skills at the floor whereas his opponents would actually have to hit thier skills on Gnaw. This makes Gnaw often feel extremely unfair outside of the highest level of play, aiming at the floor doesn't take much skill, but landing Skoll punches does; in lower skill play this makes playing Gnaw an advantage over playing nauts that require 1 iota of skill (ofc currently offset by his weak power level).

Fixing these problems is often down to imagination and understanding of the game's design, and require a lot of changes that form a coherent solution (rework). Most good players do have an understanding of which nauts are braindead to play and why they are so braindead, but that does not mean they have a solid solution to them. Furthermore, you don't have to be a god at the game to understand these problems, it isn't hard to figure out that Derpl spamming traps on the starstorm portal or Gnaw camping the Ribbit hide areas having more impact than almost any other naut isn't fair or skillful. To fix these problems though, you need a group of people trying to create a coherent solution, they don't necessarily need to be high skilled, but they need to have a strong imagination & understanding of the game and be on the same page. Normally this is the Dev team, but regardless, your not going to fix Gnaw's problems with an uncoordinated rabble posting a ton of individual & conflicting ideas.

Fun is a very subjected thing and somewhat ties into the skill/fairness side of things. Improving fun is a mix of skill/fairness/power balance as well as improving build and playstyle varity, generally speaking, stalling, statcheck/burst nauts and domininent metas are the primary culprits to reducing the fun in the game. It's something anybody can have a say on and everybody will have a different view on, but it's up to the people involved in the other areas of balance to come up with the changes that fix these problems.

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