Register    Login    Forum    Search    FAQ Awesomenauts



Post new topic Reply to topic Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next

Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Small changes I'd like to see to Nibbs in 4.7
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:17 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2015 10:24 am
Posts: 2572
Location: In my palace, mixing my martinis with paint thinner and a healthy squirt of epoxy adhesive.
I was talking about Awesomenauts, not the philosophies of game design in general. For the record, magic boxing wasn't and isn't a bug, but a particularly clever manipulation of the Starcraft engine.

Nibbs' movement during an ability that is ostensibly supposed to fix her in place, and is therefore balanced around that, is a bug.

At any rate, could we have some lovely .gifs for these "semi-consistent" situations, to see if it does have some tactical value?

_________________
Say no to SAM wrote:
Give this guy a duck for making such a good job with this thread

Nekomian wrote:
Give this guy a duck lololol

DeezNauts wrote:
Nobody can see it. Maybe instead of asking for ducks, you should put it in your signature.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Small changes I'd like to see to Nibbs in 4.7
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:30 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:58 am
Posts: 114
The Lord Protector wrote:
I agreed with Morrow before on the whole "it's a bug but not really—it's a feature" thing and I agree now.

It's a bug. Bugs get fixed, not implemented. In the last thread, you couldn't convince us that it was necessary for Nibbs' playstyle (or even meaningfully useful), and I don't think that's changed.

I don't know why you're surprised that Ronimo ignored the discussion, though.


Ronimo ignored the discussion because they can't decide themselves where to stop at when it comes to high level techs/"bugs".
Should I bring ksenia's AA cancelling warping her whole state around that tech/bug? Because you would surely jump on the "It's a bug fix it" bandwagon.


Last edited by Mr Nutz jr on Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Small changes I'd like to see to Nibbs in 4.7
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:53 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2017 10:39 pm
Posts: 48
The Lord Protector wrote:
I was talking about Awesomenauts, not the philosophies of game design in general.


It's a stupid statement for any game. There are multiple examples of bugs being utilized in high level play, stuff like telecancel into jump from launch pads for floaters and as Nutz brought up aa cancelling for certain melee nauts.

The Lord Protector wrote:
For the record, magic boxing wasn't and isn't a bug, but a particularly clever manipulation of the Starcraft engine.


Just stop with the semantic *. Favorable usage of bugs can always be described as clever manipulation, were it fits in the programing is irrelevant. * sake, stop arguing when you are wrong just admit your mistakes and move on.

The Lord Protector wrote:
Nibbs' movement during an ability that is ostensibly supposed to fix her in place, and is therefore balanced around that, is a bug.

At any rate, could we have some lovely .gifs for these "semi-consistent" situations, to see if it does have some tactical value?


You really need to see how moving flame has tactical value? Once again it's like pulling teeth with you, does your imagination just die when you are in an argument with another person? I mean I can see if I can scrunge up some replays, but the * is this *?

Even if there isn't any current tactical usage it shouldn't be hard to imagine what people can do with a moving flame, do you just want to murder any tech preemptively if it's too hard for you to pull of and you can't see any tactical use for it? Do you have any real reason why you want this gone or are you just being contrarian for the sake of it?


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Small changes I'd like to see to Nibbs in 4.7
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:30 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2014 3:16 pm
Posts: 9462
Location: Washington, USA
Arti wrote:
You really need to see how moving flame has tactical value?

If a new player saw Nibbs breathing fire and moving, they would think the game is buggy and broken, leave, and quite possibly tell all their friends the game is buggy and broken and has hack devs.

_________________
Burningdillo wrote:


On Steam | On Twitch | On YouTube
Who's Your Awesomenaut?

Mains: :chew: :fist: :ayla:


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Small changes I'd like to see to Nibbs in 4.7
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:32 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2015 10:24 am
Posts: 2572
Location: In my palace, mixing my martinis with paint thinner and a healthy squirt of epoxy adhesive.
Xelrog puts it more eloquently than I do.

I don't mind losing my... well, mind, and paragraphing on terminology to clear up any misunderstandings. We all know I love my long paragraphs and my Dota.

_________________
Say no to SAM wrote:
Give this guy a duck for making such a good job with this thread

Nekomian wrote:
Give this guy a duck lololol

DeezNauts wrote:
Nobody can see it. Maybe instead of asking for ducks, you should put it in your signature.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Small changes I'd like to see to Nibbs in 4.7
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:36 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 04, 2013 4:29 am
Posts: 432
Location: Here in these forums (Diz Forced me!)
Just wanted to say this to maybe give some idea as to what Ronimo leans towards on this discussion

During the R.A.D.I.C.A.L event last Friday I asked Kewn how he felt about bugs being reported, and how long things like this can go unknown due a lack of reports.

He said he didn't mind things like this because it's amazing to him that people will go beyond the surface level to find advantages like this. He talked about how while using teleport to constantly use Swipe/Slash for Scoop's AA is a bug it allows for higher level play, and is rather minor so as a result it stays untouched.

So I feel that bugs with a consistent way to trigger them aren't exactly a high priority to fix for Ronimo and in fact they allow them to stay because they can make a character more interesting.

Edit: Also Xelrog that is some SUPER hyperbole there people would complain about Nibbs Orb momentum or the I-frames first rather then something like moving fire. This applies for so many characters.

_________________
Deeznauts wrote:
Have you lost your mom?


Last edited by Morrowsaw on Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Small changes I'd like to see to Nibbs in 4.7
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:44 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:58 am
Posts: 114
The Lord Protector wrote:
Xelrog puts it more eloquently than I do.

I don't mind losing my... well, mind, and paragraphing on terminology to clear up any misunderstandings. We all know I love my long paragraphs and my Dota.


you and xelrog then need to understand that mechanics like ksenia's AA cancelling or EVEN gnaw's weedslam or yuri's facemining would have the same effect for a beginner as if they were seeing a nibbs moving while breathing.

That logic is completely skewed at its root. Because of that said logic, overtime, they removed already tons of interesting techs/bugs/etc (ted's stimpack AA cancelling, iron rifle going through jump pads and many others) and I doubt we're gonna retain all the remaining one if we keep going.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Small changes I'd like to see to Nibbs in 4.7
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:49 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2017 10:39 pm
Posts: 48
Yeah wtf kind of argument is that? Games should be patched in line with noob optics? Can't have pro play looking different from noob play? Part of what makes competitive games like sc bw, streetfighter 2, supersmash so enjoyable to watch is because pro players do stuff that's just not possible for noobs.

In Awesomenauts especially it's a weird statements since noobs will often complain that the simplest use of Yoolips dinos is broken.

Bridging the divide between noob optics and pro play is what * up the streetfighter franchise btw.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Small changes I'd like to see to Nibbs in 4.7
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:30 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2015 10:24 am
Posts: 2572
Location: In my palace, mixing my martinis with paint thinner and a healthy squirt of epoxy adhesive.
Mr Nutz jr wrote:
you and xelrog then need to understand that mechanics like ksenia's AA cancelling or EVEN gnaw's weedslam or yuri's facemining would have the same effect for a beginner as if they were seeing a nibbs moving while breathing.

That's false equivalence of the highest order.

AA cancelling works on the same principle as many other backswing cancels in other MOBAs—not only is it considered to be a feature widely (see: stutterstepping in League and Dota), but some games even balance around it (see: HotS' Fenix).

Weedlings' burst ("sneezelings") was designed to work that way. I don't understand why you think that's a bug. It deals AoE damage on placement: what part of that is a false interaction?

Facemining is a clever way of using already extant mechanics. You could argue that mines weren't intended for use as a close-range burst tool (and that could be reasonably fixed), but it's not a bug. At worst, it's an oversight, for the same reason that Precision Shot can be used as faceburst.

Nibbs' movement during Firebreath is entirely unintended and entirely unpredictable. The ability hasn't been balanced around it, can't be for the former reasons, and isn't supposed to permit movement for its duration.

That's a bug. Arguing with that at this point is ludicrous and not going to get us anywhere. You may argue as to whether it has reasonable strategic value—hence why I'd really like to see examples of it in use—but until that can be demonstrated, it effectively serves as nothing more than a quirk of random chance. It can't be controlled to a degree that would make it usable and is therefore an inconsistency, not a "feature".

Arti wrote:
Yeah wtf kind of argument is that? Games should be patched in line with noob optics?

That's not what Xelrog was arguing.

_________________
Say no to SAM wrote:
Give this guy a duck for making such a good job with this thread

Nekomian wrote:
Give this guy a duck lololol

DeezNauts wrote:
Nobody can see it. Maybe instead of asking for ducks, you should put it in your signature.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Small changes I'd like to see to Nibbs in 4.7
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:59 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2017 10:39 pm
Posts: 48
The Lord Protector wrote:
Mr Nutz jr wrote:
you and xelrog then need to understand that mechanics like ksenia's AA cancelling or EVEN gnaw's weedslam or yuri's facemining would have the same effect for a beginner as if they were seeing a nibbs moving while breathing.

That's false equivalence of the highest order.

AA cancelling works on the same principle as many other backswing cancels in other MOBAs—not only is it considered to be a feature widely (see: stutterstepping in League and Dota), but some games even balance around it (see: HotS' Fenix).


It's considered a feature because people like you were overruled in the days when it hadn't officially been recognized as a tech move.

The Lord Protector wrote:
Facemining is a clever way of using already extant mechanics. You could argue that mines weren't intended for use as a close-range burst tool (and that could be reasonably fixed), but it's not a bug. At worst, it's an oversight, for the same reason that Precision Shot can be used as faceburst.


Not every bug or oversight should be fixed. Ffs watch or read some history of gaming bugs, some of our most treasured competitive mechanics started out as bugs in earlier versions of games but were later designed into games as features. This wouldn't have been possible if devs were overly anal about "fixing" everything that wasn't part of their initial conscious design.

The Lord Protector wrote:
Nibbs' movement during Firebreath is entirely unintended and entirely unpredictable. The ability hasn't been balanced around it, can't be for the former reasons, and isn't supposed to permit movement for its duration.


It's not entirely unpredictable, it's controllable in a sense and better players can probably master it given time. Once again, muta stacks wasn't intended and when people started using it there was a large amount of opposition which called it a bugg and abuse. If your only argument hinges on "it's intended to be in the game" or "it's hard to use" then you are obviously a noob and you shouldn't have a voice in any of these matters.

The Lord Protector wrote:
That's a bug. Arguing with that at this point is ludicrous and not going to get us anywhere. You may argue as to whether it has reasonable strategic value—hence why I'd really like to see examples of it in use—but until that can be demonstrated, it effectively serves as nothing more than a quirk of random chance. It can't be controlled to a degree that would make it usable and is therefore an inconsistency, not a "feature".


Stop judging mechanics based on your denomination of them and judge them on their merit and character. Furthermore why should quirks be designed out of games? It's a fun move, I haven't seen any outcry about it. Seems like you just want to remove things that you don't understand, it's the definition of ignorance.

Arti wrote:
Yeah wtf kind of argument is that? Games should be patched in line with noob optics?

That's not what Xelrog was arguing.[/quote]

It's exactly what he was arguing. His whole point is to consider noobs perception of the gameplay and the consequences of their perception. That's optics. He is arguing that we should consider noob optics.

Just look at this

Xelrog wrote:
If a new player saw Nibbs breathing fire and moving, they would think the game is buggy and broken, leave, and quite possibly tell all their friends the game is buggy and broken and has hack devs.


His whole point is about what new players would think when they see. That's optics.

I know you aren't dense that's why I called you disingenuous earlier. Stop arguing semantics it's annoying asf having to rehash every point in different words just to get it through your skull.


Top 
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
 
Post new topic Reply to topic Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next