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 Post subject: Re: Changes I'd like to see for Cmdr Rocket
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:02 am 
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Chocobutter wrote:
Rocket Launch

-Rocket Launch now deals 50% damage against droids.
-Particles on Rocket Launch now continue to spawn to where the rocket would've gone even after hitting something(with the exception of surfaces.).
-Zurian bomb wrangler particles now deal 35 dps per rank.
-Zurian bomb wrangler particles now deal only 70% damage against droids.
-Mother of Bombs damage increased to 225.
It's simply too effective a tool for clearing. Right now you can build Rocket launch in such a way that lets you easily 100:0 waves from off screen for incredibly safe clear. ZBW as it is right now has pretty much no offense use as it relies on you firing it from afar to maximize it and is only good for clear/trapping bounce pads. With those changes in conjunction with the MoB buff, that should hopefully encourage/reward more aggressive usage of the skill.

I don't want to sound cynical, but are people really using launch for clear instead of laser trap> Considering the best damage it can actually put out without cigars is dealing damage to enemies who will stay in the center, meaning droids.
I am kinda alright with the MoB buff, though, because it promotes an amusing playstyle to rocket, and in it's current form, at base with a single nuke bug rocket, with no damage upgrades, point blank, for Clem sake, you're still sacrificing more damage than you could deal for a delayed damage boost, so in short, yeah, I do think MoB does far too little in it's current state, I was gonna complain about the cost, but I think it's completely justified considering it's completely independent from all the factors in Rocket's Basic Attacks and upgrades.
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Laser Trap

-Luxor crystal ashtray no longer adds extra length and instead increases the flight speed of big rockets that pass through the center of the trap by 100%.
-Cirean cigars now costs 125 solar per rank.

Just an odd idea to spice up the Trap row and price reduction to speed up Rocket's spending through the upgrades on trap that make it actually good.

So...About these ideas, one thing that annoys me is innovation of upgrades simply for the sake of it, I don't really see the purpose of taking this upgrade that is so simple and make it an upgrade that only applies to a certain situation, assuming you fire off trap first, and so long as you're planning on aiming the rocket directly through the center, now, I won't lie, the longer I think the idea through, the smoother it sounds, but my personal issue is this change feels unwarranted. Also, from my experience, I usually need to get cigars and/or slowing just to get any sort of real damage out of traps on enemy nauts, but changing a powerful upgrade's price doesn't improve the actual upgrade, it just changes how soon people will, or can get it.
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Charged Salvo

-Head in a jar now costs 150 solar per rank.
-Can of eight balls now costs 165 solar per rank.
-Liquid MRE now costs 200 solar.

Rocket still has damage, but it's almost exclusively hidden behind price walls. This should give him a good piggy banking option with the price reductions on Head in a jar to improve his ability to be aggressive in the early game instead of just clearing and triple button pressing his stuff into team fights while simultaneously exiting them.

Like I said earlier, price changes are all well and good, but at the end of the day, they only really change how soon you can get upgrades, rather than their effectiveness.

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The solution to this is having droids that are actually a threat instead of a joke.


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 Post subject: Re: Changes I'd like to see for Cmdr Rocket
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:41 am 
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ScR wrote:
Mr Nutz jr wrote:
Giving him any source of DPS is a terrible idea.

And giving Rocket another burst (bomb/mine) as a third ability is the worst idea.


It is not if you're making his whole kit balanced in the latter end so he has cohesive damage that won't be bonker like beta rocket.


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 Post subject: Re: Changes I'd like to see for Cmdr Rocket
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:24 am 
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I'm convinced that none of you have the faintest idea of what you want Rocket to be aside from "not what he was at release".

Design comes after conceptualisation. You can't do it in reverse order.

Well, no—you can, but it won't go very well.

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 Post subject: Re: Changes I'd like to see for Cmdr Rocket
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:37 pm 
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The Lord Protector wrote:
none of you


Doesn't help that you actually don't play the game which skew your point of view.
Sequencebreaker and I have already said what we had to say, rocket's kit has roughly 2.5 abilities. Most of its power is packed onto rocket launch which is 2 abilities at once roughly and laser trap feel way too "placeholder" and has no coherence in his kit.

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Design comes after conceptualisation. You can't do it in reverse order.


Untrue, league has been working with kit's design > kit's concept system when it comes to reworks and afaik none of them except a small bunch of reworks weren't a problem.


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 Post subject: Re: Changes I'd like to see for Cmdr Rocket
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:30 pm 
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"Rocket's kit is imbalanced in its power" does not define what you want him to achieve. There's absolutely zero consistency between people wanting him to harass, brawl, push, or support (god forbid). We even had a thread in which those exact categories were brought up and there was very little consensus.

That's what I'm getting at.

Not only would I not use League of Legends as a good example of champion design for reasons that you allude to, but you're also missing the point on conceptualisation. You cannot physically balance a character's abilities with each other before you know what they're supposed to be doing—that's the concept. Knowing how they do what they do is the design. "It heals" is conceptualisation, and "it heals three allies in an AoE" is the design.

We need to know what Rocket's supposed to be achieving before we can figure out how he's supposed to achieve it.

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 Post subject: Re: Changes I'd like to see for Cmdr Rocket
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:50 pm 
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The Lord Protector wrote:
Not only would I not use League of Legends as a good example of champion design for reasons that you allude to, but you're also missing the point on conceptualisation. You cannot physically balance a character's abilities with each other before you know what they're supposed to be doing—that's the concept. Knowing how they do what they do is the design. "It heals" is conceptualisation, and "it heals three allies in an AoE" is the design.


Simply put, you're actively demonstrating what I wanted, you don't even need the conceptualization step considering the design one pack it through the whole designing process.

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Not only would I not use League of Legends


Not only would I not consider Dota's kit in both execution and diversity to be better, league has been improving on that side so I don't frankly know what you're about.

Quote:
We need to know what Rocket's supposed to be


He has been an harasser since day 1


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 Post subject: Re: Changes I'd like to see for Cmdr Rocket
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:35 pm 
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Mr Nutz jr wrote:
Simply put, you're actively demonstrating what I wanted, you don't even need the conceptualization step considering the design one pack it through the whole designing process.

Could you explain?

Mr Nutz jr wrote:
Not only would I not consider Dota's kit in both execution and diversity to be better, league has been improving on that side so I don't frankly know what you're about.


I... didn't mention Dota.

Even then, I wouldn't use Dota, either.

Its hero design isn't really very revolutionary compared to something like HotS. It's in mechanical design that Dota shines.

Mr Nutz jr wrote:
He has been an harasser since day 1

Then we need to design around that. What style of ability would compliment a long-ranged, single-projectile harasser that hasn't already been included in Awesomenauts?

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Give this guy a duck for making such a good job with this thread

Nekomian wrote:
Give this guy a duck lololol

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Nobody can see it. Maybe instead of asking for ducks, you should put it in your signature.


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 Post subject: Re: Changes I'd like to see for Cmdr Rocket
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:16 am 
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Rocket was a Brawler day 1 and thats all people want to do with him. The only thing people want (who have any idea how to play Rocket) is for laser to be more consistent.

Lets say laser trap does the same thing but lets out a slow pulse that would slow enemies. The pulse doesn't go farther than half the range of the laser. Something that would actually make it a trap and not a spinning laser thats only good when you upgrade slow on it.

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 Post subject: Re: Changes I'd like to see for Cmdr Rocket
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:02 am 
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S_Fits wrote:
Rocket was a Brawler day 1


rocket wasn't a brawler day 1, what are you saying?
His whole kit yell for harassing, how can his double burst click with extra safetyness be called brawling at all? How can laser trap (even if I despise the ability entirely) be considered a brawling tool until you've plumbed enough solar into it to make it a burst zoning tool. And how can charging salvo be considered a brawling AA when holding left-click is counter-productive with him?

Quote:
The only thing people want (who have any idea how to play Rocket)


You don't realise rocket's purpose yet are claiming something that's not even a consensus about rocket, so It's very unlikely that you know how to play rocket yourself.


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 Post subject: Re: Changes I'd like to see for Cmdr Rocket
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:33 am 
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Pretty sure he just ran into everything dumped damage and they were dead. Brawler/nuker. Nobody liked playing a harasser because it was boring. Why did you think there was an uproar when they added that dumb damage reduction on AA. Also everything he has that would help him harass got nerfed or removed. He was already boring enough. People only use trap offensively and it forces you to get in close because it fires so close. Also because if you use it defensively it fails miserably because how inconstant it is. It seriously sucks at area denial. Chuchos bomb does a better job at area denial. You seriously know nothing.

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