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 Post subject: An issue with Voltar's AA
 Post Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:16 pm 
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So, I've brought this up before (once upon a time, long long ago), but now seems like a good time to bring the subject back up.

Why does Voltar's AA get stronger the further away his allies are from Voltar?
I'm going to try to list the pros and cons of this decision; that way you'll see where I'm coming from here.

PROS
  • Raises the skill ceiling for Voltar. This is good for Voltar players because it makes the character a bit more interesting to play.
  • Helps keep him functional when tight grouping is a bad idea - several match-ups involving Sentry, Nibbs, Rocco and Skolldir come to mind.

CONS
  • Raises the Skill Floor - this is bad for both Voltar and his teammates, because a sub-par Voltar hurts everyone on his team.
  • Hurts his functionality when close grouping is a good idea - several match-ups involving Leon, Penny, Ksenia, Qi'tara, Froggy G, and/or Dizzy come to mind.
  • Counterintuitive; this is particularly a problem when you can't verbally communicate with teammates and they read your trying to put more space between the two of you as 'Voltar is leaving me'.
  • Clashes with Healbot; if Voltar is supposed to be as far away from his teammates as he can manage, why does Healbot drop directly at his feet? This becomes even more of an issue when enemy zoning comes into play.
  • Reduces flexibility. If Voltar needs to move closer to his teammates (or his teammates need to retreat closer to him) the team is effectively punished for doing so.
  • Reduces consistency. This makes it a lot harder for Voltar and his teammates to judge just how much more abuse his teammates can absorb.

Would it not make more sense to switch the 'distance-for-power' mechanic over to the damage equation rather than healing? If it were kept on him at all?

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 Post subject: Re: An issue with Voltar's AA
 Post Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:04 pm 
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Camkitsune wrote:
Why does Voltar's AA get stronger the further away his allies are from Voltar?

Because they redesigned him with this mechanic in mind?

Camkitsune wrote:
Would it not make more sense to switch the 'distance-for-power' mechanic over to the damage equation rather than healing? If it were kept on him at all?

Why would this be necessary? I don't feel like you've described the necessity of this in the OP.
Describing a few (questionable) up and downsides of a mechanic doesn't justify rebalancing Voltar without said mechanic. You should try to convince a reader of this by giving arguments and then elaborating on these.

Camkitsune wrote:
Clashes with Healbot; if Voltar is supposed to be as far away from his teammates as he can manage, why does Healbot drop directly at his feet? This becomes even more of an issue when enemy zoning comes into play.

How did you come to the conclusion that Voltar is supposed to be far away from his team?
Positioning is very important with Voltar, and you basically want to always be within Cortex Tank range of your team. Just not in front since it makes it easier to get ganked.

You are both saying that Voltar needs to be far away from his team, and that he is forced to move closer to his team. I don't get what you mean by this or how it would reduce Voltar flexability etc.

Frankly most arguments you make why this mechanic has to go don't make a lot of sense, "because bad Voltars hurt their teammates" is not a valid reasoning why it would Raise Voltar's skillfloor.

I'm sure you mean well but if you want to change Voltar for the better, this is not the way to go about doing so.

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 Post subject: Re: An issue with Voltar's AA
 Post Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 2:54 am 
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Jas123c wrote:
Because they redesigned him with this mechanic in mind?

I disagree; the feature makes no sense in the context of the rest of his kit.

His drones are most effective at short-medium range - medium is pushing it because of the auto-targeting for DPS, and the one-at-a-time burst shot.
His healbot ONLY makes sense as a team fight ability if Voltar is close to his allies. The closer to the edge of the AoE a teammate is, the less freely they can move. At the edge they have to effectively stand still or risk missing the burst by mistiming due to latency. If a teammate is already low on life the last thing they can do is stop and wait for that burst.

Positioning is already emphasized by Voltar's limited mobility and the fundamental nature of his kit.
What exactly is this additional variability adding?
IConsidering how critical positioning already is to Voltar, why does actively punishing him by reducing his DPS when he closes distance with his allies make any kind of sense?

His AA is already has one of the worst outputs of any of the characters; the only person whose AA does less is Skree, and that's only provided he's hitting a single target and not getting any rebound lightning.
Does it really warrant this extra gimmick, particularly when it only serves to make his AA even weaker?

Quote:
Why would this be necessary? I don't feel like you've described the necessity of this in the OP.
Describing a few (questionable) up and downsides of a mechanic doesn't justify rebalancing Voltar without said mechanic. You should try to convince a reader of this by giving arguments and then elaborating on these.

While there are definitely more pressing balance issues at present, this is still an issue that ought to at least be brought up.

As I said in the OP, the mechanic is not really adding anything. What it is doing is restricting the flexibility of a character who already suffers from being a fairly one-trick pony.

Quote:
How did you come to the conclusion that Voltar is supposed to be far away from his team?
Positioning is very important with Voltar, and you basically want to always be within Cortex Tank range of your team. Just not in front since it makes it easier to get ganked.


'Far away' is a relative term.
If you're trying to get maximum benefit from base AA you're either hovering somewhere above your target (something that outside of Sorona is something you can only ever do within a limited portion of the map) or you're somewhere around 9 units of distance away from them in order to maximize the effectiveness of your AA.
The Radius of Healbot's AoE is 10 units. Again, if you're dropping it explicitly for the target you're trying to heal, said target has to either be in the process of falling back, stop moving, or continue fighting normally and hope they can time re-entering healbot's AoE against latency.
If you want to use healbot more aggressively in team fights, you have to either be hovering over your team or else sacrifice the effectiveness of your AA.

Quote:
You are both saying that Voltar needs to be far away from his team, and that he is forced to move closer to his team. I don't get what you mean by this or how it would reduce Voltar flexability etc.

Voltar's AA only works properly for healing when he is at a distance of 9.8 units from his primary target.
Using his drones effectively requires him being somewhat closer than that unless you're building specifically to poke people with suicide drones using WGO and 2 stages of Hyper-Drive; otherwise you'll only ever be able to hit targets moving towards/perpendicular to your position.
Using healbot aggressively (In other words, using it in a way explicitly supported by half of the upgrades on its row) requires being close enough to at least one (probably both) of your teammates that they don't have to break off fighting to get the benefit of healbot.

All of these things require Voltar to be at different

Quote:
Frankly most arguments you make why this mechanic has to go don't make a lot of sense, "because bad Voltars hurt their teammates" is not a valid reasoning why it would Raise Voltar's skillfloor.


Voltar more or less has to rely on his teammates taking a share of the damage that would be directed to him, because he has neither the health pool nor the evasive ability to handle taking a lot of fire, especially early on.
This is because, as you yourself pointed out, Voltar typically needs to be behind his teammates. Thus, in 2v2 and 3v3 situations, the damage is being focused on the front side of Volt's team, which has one less available target to focus fire on.

Now for some numbers: let's say he's paired with a Clunk and his opponents are Lonestar and Genji (just to get some raw, mid-tier numbers).
Lonestar has a DPS of 180.5 and Genji has one of 162.5.
Voltar's drones have a DPS of 90, but can't be focused reliably, so for practical purposes he's only doing 45 damage to the target Clunk is focusing on.
If Voltar is hitting Clunk for 40 healed with every shot he's only negating 114.7 of Genji's DPS, so the numbers come out just about even.

Now, if this is a bad Voltar he won't be positioned to properly allow his drones to land their reliably, or he won't be hitting Clunk for the optimum amount of health.

The further away Voltar strays from the Goldilocks Zone created by the interaction between the Range-Power mechanic on his AA and the targeting of his drones, the less he can mitigate the damage Clunk is taking on his behalf, and/or the less damage he is himself dealing to support Clunk's efforts.

And bear in mind, this Voltar isn't 'bad' because he's missing shots. This Voltar is 'bad' because he can't stay at an arbitrary distance from his target in order to keep his AA's already low power from sinking even lower.

A team with any Voltar is at a power disadvantage right from the start.
A person not hitting their shots properly exacerbates that problem by failing to mitigate the damage his teammates have to take on his behalf.
Thus, a team with a 'bad' Voltar is actively hurting his teammates' ability to perform just by virtue of the raw imbalance of numbers.

Quote:
I'm sure you mean well but if you want to change Voltar for the better, this is not the way to go about doing so.

I'm starting with a basic premise, then elaborating on it when and if I find resistance.
After the number of times I've gotten TL;DR'd on these forums this seems a better method.

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 Post subject: Re: An issue with Voltar's AA
 Post Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 11:05 am 
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Thank you for the thorough response, to make it easier to read I'll just respond by writing in red text, since using any more quotes will drive me mad. :scoop:


Camkitsune wrote:
Jas123c wrote:
Because they redesigned him with this mechanic in mind?

I disagree; the feature makes no sense in the context of the rest of his kit.

His drones are most effective at short-medium range - medium is pushing it because of the auto-targeting for DPS, and the one-at-a-time burst shot.
His healbot ONLY makes sense as a team fight ability if Voltar is close to his allies. The closer to the edge of the AoE a teammate is, the less freely they can move. At the edge they have to effectively stand still or risk missing the burst by mistiming due to latency. If a teammate is already low on life the last thing they can do is stop and wait for that burst.

I'd like to make clear that there are a lot of different ways of playing Voltar including builds. One such build : 'knockback Voltar' is most effective in long-range, this is the only real way I've seen Voltar work in competitive and it's not focussed around healing at all. You can prevent a lot of bad from happening with a well placed kb drone and Cortex Tank can be used as a last resort option. Voltar struggles somewhat in the current meta but here is a video of the build in action when it shone.

Frankly the entire healing AA mechanic doesn't matter much for the way this build is used, but it does matter more for other healing focussed builds. Not only this but it makes an otherwise boring AA more complex.


Positioning is already emphasized by Voltar's limited mobility and the fundamental nature of his kit.
What exactly is this additional variability adding?
IConsidering how critical positioning already is to Voltar, why does actively punishing him by reducing his DPS when he closes distance with his allies make any kind of sense?

I agree with you that positioning is already very important to Voltar, yet I don't see how the healing increase with range would be a burden to his positioning. Also I'm assuming you meant healing 'dps', but just in case : the damage on his AA is fixed regardless of the range.

His AA is already has one of the worst outputs of any of the characters; the only person whose AA does less is Skree, and that's only provided he's hitting a single target and not getting any rebound lightning.
Does it really warrant this extra gimmick, particularly when it only serves to make his AA even weaker?

As I said earlier Voltar has a lot of different builds, DPS builds would have drones alongside this otherwise bad AA. While burst builds would go for chilli eyedrops instead, which is already some serious burst on AA itself.
I wouldn't recommend using a full heal-AA build but if you were to do that the AA mechanic would make this build a lot more interesting.


Quote:
Why would this be necessary? I don't feel like you've described the necessity of this in the OP.
Describing a few (questionable) up and downsides of a mechanic doesn't justify rebalancing Voltar without said mechanic. You should try to convince a reader of this by giving arguments and then elaborating on these.

While there are definitely more pressing balance issues at present, this is still an issue that ought to at least be brought up.

As I said in the OP, the mechanic is not really adding anything. What it is doing is restricting the flexibility of a character who already suffers from being a fairly one-trick pony.

What I'm trying to say is that if you think this mechanic needs to go, that you should explain how it's restricting his flexibility for example. I just don't see the correlation. :shrug:

Quote:
How did you come to the conclusion that Voltar is supposed to be far away from his team?
Positioning is very important with Voltar, and you basically want to always be within Cortex Tank range of your team. Just not in front since it makes it easier to get ganked.


'Far away' is a relative term.
If you're trying to get maximum benefit from base AA you're either hovering somewhere above your target (something that outside of Sorona is something you can only ever do within a limited portion of the map) or you're somewhere around 9 units of distance away from them in order to maximize the effectiveness of your AA.
The Radius of Healbot's AoE is 10 units. Again, if you're dropping it explicitly for the target you're trying to heal, said target has to either be in the process of falling back, stop moving, or continue fighting normally and hope they can time re-entering healbot's AoE against latency.
If you want to use healbot more aggressively in team fights, you have to either be hovering over your team or else sacrifice the effectiveness of your AA.

Right, so isn't what you're describing just a part of his positioning skillceiling? The way you play knockback Voltar (or Cortex Tank in general) is indeed by sacrificing some heals in return for preventing damage, how is this a bad thing?

Quote:
You are both saying that Voltar needs to be far away from his team, and that he is forced to move closer to his team. I don't get what you mean by this or how it would reduce Voltar flexability etc.

Voltar's AA only works properly for healing when he is at a distance of 9.8 units from his primary target.
Using his drones effectively requires him being somewhat closer than that unless you're building specifically to poke people with suicide drones using WGO and 2 stages of Hyper-Drive; otherwise you'll only ever be able to hit targets moving towards/perpendicular to your position.
Using healbot aggressively (In other words, using it in a way explicitly supported by half of the upgrades on its row) requires being close enough to at least one (probably both) of your teammates that they don't have to break off fighting to get the benefit of healbot.

All of these things require Voltar to be at different

AA has a lot of different options, HoT doesn't care about range at all and eyedrops greatly care about the range healing increase. If you're going for a DPS drone build that forces you to be short-ranged then you probably want AA dps and perhaps HoT. This just adds to his build diversity and allows heal AA builds to be stronger in this specific area.

Quote:
Frankly most arguments you make why this mechanic has to go don't make a lot of sense, "because bad Voltars hurt their teammates" is not a valid reasoning why it would Raise Voltar's skillfloor.


Voltar more or less has to rely on his teammates taking a share of the damage that would be directed to him, because he has neither the health pool nor the evasive ability to handle taking a lot of fire, especially early on.
This is because, as you yourself pointed out, Voltar typically needs to be behind his teammates. Thus, in 2v2 and 3v3 situations, the damage is being focused on the front side of Volt's team, which has one less available target to focus fire on.

Fair enough I get your point now, yet I disagree with it. Being behind your teammates doesn't make Voltar useless in a teamfight. If anything by doing this it allows the Voltar to do his thing during the teamfight. Healbot can turn teamfights around in the blink of an eye. Not only this but you can even prevent bad teamfights from happening with kb, all while being behind your teammates.

Now for some numbers: let's say he's paired with a Clunk and his opponents are Lonestar and Genji (just to get some raw, mid-tier numbers).
Lonestar has a DPS of 180.5 and Genji has one of 162.5.
Voltar's drones have a DPS of 90, but can't be focused reliably, so for practical purposes he's only doing 45 damage to the target Clunk is focusing on.
If Voltar is hitting Clunk for 40 healed with every shot he's only negating 114.7 of Genji's DPS, so the numbers come out just about even.

Now, if this is a bad Voltar he won't be positioned to properly allow his drones to land their reliably, or he won't be hitting Clunk for the optimum amount of health.

The further away Voltar strays from the Goldilocks Zone created by the interaction between the Range-Power mechanic on his AA and the targeting of his drones, the less he can mitigate the damage Clunk is taking on his behalf, and/or the less damage he is himself dealing to support Clunk's efforts.

And bear in mind, this Voltar isn't 'bad' because he's missing shots. This Voltar is 'bad' because he can't stay at an arbitrary distance from his target in order to keep his AA's already low power from sinking even lower.

A team with any Voltar is at a power disadvantage right from the start.
A person not hitting their shots properly exacerbates that problem by failing to mitigate the damage his teammates have to take on his behalf.
Thus, a team with a 'bad' Voltar is actively hurting his teammates' ability to perform just by virtue of the raw imbalance of numbers.

Yes I get that Voltar's dps can be worse than some other nauts, yet that's simply part of the game. Everynaut has some upsides and downsides, I wouldn't recommend ever using a DPS build vs a Clunk. There are better ways of playing around this.
I don't think this is that great of an example, since it's very situational and can be prevented with a different build.

Regardless the healing AA isn't meant to outheal an enemies dps, it's meant for after teamfights. You wouldn't want those shield Derpl healer gimmicks being possible with everynaut in the game. :lolstar:

I still think it's part of the Voltar's skillceiling whether he can heal well or not, it's not a bad thing that a team would be at a slight disadvantage if their Voltar would have a lower skillceiling.
I don't see how this would be a reasoning why the AA healing range increase, has to go.


Quote:
I'm sure you mean well but if you want to change Voltar for the better, this is not the way to go about doing so.

I'm starting with a basic premise, then elaborating on it when and if I find resistance.
After the number of times I've gotten TL;DR'd on these forums this seems a better method.
I get where you're coming from, when making balance suggestion you're putting a lot of time into the post. And it's a waste of time when no one is responding to it. Yet it's not the readers fault for not wanting to read a long perhaps boring post, try to write short yet powerful arguments. That way it's easier to read and people would be more inclined to read your suggestions. :thumb:

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 Post subject: Re: An issue with Voltar's AA
 Post Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 6:18 pm 
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A link to my previous thread on Voltar where some substantial discussion happened.

I'm still of the mind that piercing should be on base and the distance mechanic should be nixed completely. Balance numbers accordingly.

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 Post subject: Re: An issue with Voltar's AA
 Post Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:25 pm 
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#DeworkVoltar

More seriously the mechanic does make his basically only viable healing build Chilli Flavoured Eyedrops + HoT, especially since Chilli Flavoured Eyedrops can also help to provide with your burst healing (and burst damage at times). Too bad Happy Thoughts got nerfed as well when it was made to effect minimum heal too because it could've been a viable choice if it wasn't.

Voltar has kind of always been pretty one trick, just now he's very one trick knockback rather than one trick damage or healing. Only meaningful choice I remember I've had to make when I'm actually trying to play seriously is whether I build Chilli and HoT first, or knockback. Either way Jas is probably best to know about him in a competitive aspect, though even his messages just seem to come down to "it doesn't really effect him one way or the other" from what I can tell though, since his normal Healing Per Second on AA is so unimportant in the current game state.

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 Post subject: Re: An issue with Voltar's AA
 Post Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:50 am 
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Jas123c wrote:
I'd like to make clear that there are a lot of different ways of playing Voltar including builds. One such build : 'knockback Voltar' is most effective in long-range, this is the only real way I've seen Voltar work in competitive and it's not focussed around healing at all. You can prevent a lot of bad from happening with a well placed kb drone and Cortex Tank can be used as a last resort option. Voltar struggles somewhat in the current meta but here is a video of the build in action when it shone.

Frankly the entire healing AA mechanic doesn't matter much for the way this build is used, but it does matter more for other healing focussed builds. Not only this but it makes an otherwise boring AA more complex.

More complex doesn't necessarily mean better; back in the day Voltar's AA has always been over-complicated by weird mechanics like partial charging, solar earned for healing, and the many, many problems he created by being able to heal droids with his AA.

Making his AA more complicated doesn't make it 'better'. It just makes it that much harder to use optimally, because the range gimmick is not adding anything to his kit.

It would be adding something if it were the difference between healing for a serviceable amount and a quite strong amount - but that would break the game pretty badly because of things like damage shields.

At present it is the difference between his AA being 'servicable' and 'glorified med-i-can'.

Quote:
I agree with you that positioning is already very important to Voltar, yet I don't see how the healing increase with range would be a burden to his positioning. Also I'm assuming you meant healing 'dps', but just in case : the damage on his AA is fixed regardless of the range.

It would be more accurate to call it 'output per second' since he does both DPS and HPS.

It's a burden to his positioning because his AA becomes effectively useless if you're not in a fairly limited range relative to your teammates.

The game is effectively punishing Voltar for being too close to his teammates by cutting his healing output by as much as 50%.

And it's definitely a 'decrease' because if you look at his numbers the balancing was definitely done with his maximum healing output in mind.

His AA is already has one of the worst outputs of any of the characters; the only person whose AA does less is Skree, and that's only provided he's hitting a single target and not getting any rebound lightning.
Does it really warrant this extra gimmick, particularly when it only serves to make his AA even weaker?

Quote:
As I said earlier Voltar has a lot of different builds, DPS builds would have drones alongside this otherwise bad AA. While burst builds would go for chilli eyedrops instead, which is already some serious burst on AA itself.
I wouldn't recommend using a full heal-AA build but if you were to do that the AA mechanic would make this build a lot more interesting.


It doesn't make a more old-school Voltar build more 'interesting' - unless by 'interesting' you mean 'non-viable', because his output is only respectable if he's at max range, and it simply isn't possible to stay at the perfect spacing in a team fight.

I don't like the Chili-Flavored Eye Drops build because it essentially turns Voltar into every other 'naut. You just charge up, fire at a teammate so they get the HoT, and then go focus on other things.
This is a perfectly valid way to build Voltar. It's even the best way under some circumstances. But it's not the way I like to play Voltar, because I've always preferred to use the concentrated fire build.
However, Chili-Flavored Eyedrops-ET is generally superior to Happy Thoughts simply because it gives an extremely consistent output relative to standard use. Standard use tends to fluctuate dramatically as you get closer to your allies.


Quote:
What I'm trying to say is that if you think this mechanic needs to go, that you should explain how it's restricting his flexibility for example. I just don't see the correlation. :shrug:


Let me explain this as simply as I can, via an example:

Your Clunk is under fire from a Rocco.
The only thing keeping him alive is your AA, because Healbot is on cooldown.
Now, if your AA didn't have the stupid range mechanic, you could step in, burst Rocco and attempt to force him back without risking him dodging them when you throw them at range.
However, Clunk is only just hanging on.
If you get closer to him, your AA output dips and Clunk goes down, leaving you at the mercy of Rocco.

This situation or one like it comes up a lot more often than you might expect. The range mechanic forces Voltar to stay at a certain distance if he wants to stay relevant by healing - either that or buy Euphoric Thoughts and eye-drops, which makes his AA perform at a much more consistent level.


Quote:
Right, so isn't what you're describing just a part of his positioning skillceiling? The way you play knockback Voltar (or Cortex Tank in general) is indeed by sacrificing some heals in return for preventing damage, how is this a bad thing?

You're conflating build decisions that a player can make at their own discression with a mechanic baked into Voltar's AA.
Why does Voltar need to sacrifice the effectiveness of his AA in return for being able to group up more tightly with his allies?

Quote:
AA has a lot of different options, HoT doesn't care about range at all and eyedrops greatly care about the range healing increase. If you're going for a DPS drone build that forces you to be short-ranged then you probably want AA dps and perhaps HoT. This just adds to his build diversity and allows heal AA builds to be stronger in this specific area.

The only viable build for Voltar's AA involves Euphoric Thoughts + Eye Drops. There's simply no way around it - after hundreds of matches with this particular version of Voltar this is the conclusion I have been forced to come to, and I hate the Eye Drops ET build.
The only time you can go with Happy Thoughts and PKR is if you have Clunk or Derpl and you're going to be effectively positioning yourself entirely around him, because otherwise your team will not get the heals they are expecting to get and will die.


Quote:
Fair enough I get your point now, yet I disagree with it. Being behind your teammates doesn't make Voltar useless in a teamfight. If anything by doing this it allows the Voltar to do his thing during the teamfight. Healbot can turn teamfights around in the blink of an eye. Not only this but you can even prevent bad teamfights from happening with kb, all while being behind your teammates.

I think you still missed the point I was driving at.
Voltar being behind his teammates isn't the problem, it's a natural consequence of being a squishy support.
The problem is that unless he is at least 9 distance units away from his target his AA will under-perform in terms of healing. This is an incredibly narrow comfort zone; no balance-related reason for it has been given.
His maximum output is appropriately balanced.
His effective level goes down arbitrarily depending on how close he is to the one getting the heals. Which will be changing constantly, because both he and his teammates will be moving around more or less constantly while fighting is going on.

Now - and I am going to keep asking this until I get a cogent answer: what balance concern is addressed by including this mechanic?

Quote:
Yes I get that Voltar's dps can be worse than some other nauts, yet that's simply part of the game. Everynaut has some upsides and downsides, I wouldn't recommend ever using a DPS build vs a Clunk. There are better ways of playing around this.
I don't think this is that great of an example, since it's very situational and can be prevented with a different build.

Regardless the healing AA isn't meant to outheal an enemies dps, it's meant for after teamfights. You wouldn't want those shield Derpl healer gimmicks being possible with everynaut in the game. :lolstar:

I still think it's part of the Voltar's skillceiling whether he can heal well or not, it's not a bad thing that a team would be at a slight disadvantage if their Voltar would have a lower skillceiling.
I don't see how this would be a reasoning why the AA healing range increase, has to go.


:facepalm:

First of all, I agree. His AA is exactly where it needs to be in terms of balance... At the optimum distance. When you're close to your target the heal is virtually useless.
I'm not advocating that his maximum values be increased - I'm advocating that the mechanic that only allows him to obtain those values under counter-intuitive circumstances be removed.

Second of all, how is 'standing around waiting for Voltar to heal you' more 'interesting' than 'having Voltar help you tank fire from two enemies'?

Third of all, if the AA is only supposed to heal allies out of battle then how is the power-at-distance mechanic anything more than a completely trivial inconvenience? How does that make Voltar more interesting?

Fourth of all, are you really suggesting that the only thing this game has that even vaguely resembles a dedicated support... Isn't supposed to be played like a dedicated support? :derp:

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A link to my previous thread on Voltar where some substantial discussion happened.

I'm still of the mind that piercing should be on base and the distance mechanic should be nixed completely. Balance numbers accordingly.


As much as I'd like to agree, I don't think that adding a base level of Psychokinetic Repulsion is a good idea, as it would necessitate lowering his base output pretty substantially to stop him from standing behind Sentry and Derpl and just rolling forward.

I think it'd be a good idea to see what setting his AA heal to a flat 40 (or if you want to be cautious, 35) does instead of doing anything too drastic. I really want to avoid another situation where Voltar gets nerfed into the ground again... :shady:

EDIT: fixed some BB codes I left /s off of, edited some language for clarity (and to tone down the snark just a bit).
EDIT 2: fixed a couple of stray quote closes.

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Last edited by Camkitsune on Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: An issue with Voltar's AA
 Post Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 2:13 pm 
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Again, Happy Thoughts being nerfed is what put the real nail in the coffin for that build. It adds 17.14 healing per second at the minimum and 34.28 healing per second at maximum but requires you to hit every shot on your allies, and you're more likely getting closer to the minimum than the maximum. In contrast, Euthoric thoughts adds 16 healing per second flat always, for 10 seconds, so you only need to hit 1 shot, and it's also cheaper.

There was really not a massive amount of reason for Happy Thoughts to be lowered from 25% to 15%. Especially when it was still one of the least picked upgrades on the row when it was 25%.

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 Post subject: Re: An issue with Voltar's AA
 Post Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 2:19 pm 
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Here's a good tip:

If you can't immediately identify the benefits (and applications) of any particular mechanic, chances are it's a gimmick that can be done without.

See: Voltar.

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 Post subject: Re: An issue with Voltar's AA
 Post Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:33 pm 
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Sryder13 wrote:
Jas is probably best to know about him in a competitive aspect, though even his messages just seem to come down to "it doesn't really effect him one way or the other" from what I can tell though, since his normal Healing Per Second on AA is so unimportant in the current game state.


You'd be right if that's how my messages come down, the main reason I didn't respond to Xelrog's Voltar post from earlier is because the mechanics are insignificant. Though the subject of piercing is a bit weird since damage piercing would be broken, yet the way piercing currently works is still annoying (because of targets messing up the healing). I'd much rather see the piercing upgrade getting replaced but I believe a lot of people still use the upgrade, probably because of the bug it used to have.

Also there are other comp players who've played Voltar in tournaments before to great success, MrPillow and Bodyhunter for example. 9volt if I remember correctly almost beat my team without a knockback build. He probably more knows about DPS Voltar then me.

The Lord Protector wrote:
Here's a good tip:

If you can't immediately identify the benefits (and applications) of any particular mechanic, chances are it's a gimmick that can be done without.

See: Voltar.


While the mechanic might be insignificant, it does have more benefits then downsides imo. I personally don't see any downsides to the healing AA mechanic, Sorry Kimkitsune but I don't agree with your cons or the reasoning behind it.

Camkitsune wrote:
:facepalm:

First of all, I agree. His AA is exactly where it needs to be in terms of balance... At the optimum distance. When you're close to your target the heal is virtually useless.
I'm not advocating that his maximum values be increased - I'm advocating that the mechanic that only allows him to obtain those values under counter-intuitive circumstances be removed.

As I said before, I don't think it's a bad thing that the heal is virtually useless up close. It adds to his positioning skill and increases build diversity slightly.

Second of all, how is 'standing around waiting for Voltar to heal you' more 'interesting' than 'having Voltar help you tank fire from two enemies'?

Lot's of different ways of playing Voltar, yet I don't think a 'outhealing the enemies direct damage strategy' would be very effective. I mostly try to heal my teammates back to an acceptable amount outside of teamfights, and this can be done while rotating. This way you can do other things during this time, also it's good to control the jungle on most maps even if you don't need the healing.

Third of all, if the AA is only supposed to heal allies out of battle then how is the power-at-distance mechanic anything more than a completely trivial inconvenience? How does that make Voltar more interesting?

How is the way of using it related to when you are using it? Healing for as much as possible while standing still or walking around, do add to the skillceiling somewhat.
This can be tricky to get right since the projectile speed is a bit weird with wall colision.


Fourth of all, are you really suggesting that the only thing this game has that even vaguely resembles a dedicated support... Isn't supposed to be played like a dedicated support? :derp:

Glad you brought this up, people often mistake healing and support as the same thing. Voltar can be an excellent support to his team by proper usage of his knockbacks, he can disposition enemies and prevent teammates from dying with it.
I see the healing as an added bonus to his support, and I'm glad it's not the only thing Voltar has going for him. Believe me we do not want to go back to the Voltar train days when healing was his only purpose. :thumb:

On a side node, you could even consider bombshell as a support option because of the area control it gives. I really like how much synergy it has with his knockback, it's crazy how much the darkmattershots change did for Voltar.

I'd like you to tell me how a dedicated support is supposed to be played. :CocoWink:


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