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 Post subject: How to make Coco better and fun again
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:54 am 
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Coco as she is right now is a good character, but she is not fun for the most part anymore due to a handful of changes she received which also happened to ruin her item choices as well. Here are a few ideas I've mocked up which may remedy these issues and make her a more interactive character.

Ball Changes

Before anything else, cooldown ball needs to be addressed. The item in it's current form hinders Coco's build variety as the item is neigh-mandatory.
-Nerf cooldown ball to -1s from -1.5s
-Increase price of cd ball from 160 to 180

As cooldown ball has been nerfed now, we can make another item that seems almost no play viable once again.
-Revert Heavenly Fire's (dot ball) blaze nerf, bringing it back to 100% blaze damage and time.

-Revert Coco's aa lockout after using ball as well, it makes her feel incredibly clunky to play as at times.

-Buff ball damage's price to 180 a stage from 215 a stage. It's an incredibly expensive upgrade for no reason.


Blaze Changes
Speed blaze has been a malice to everyone playing against Coco, the fact that it's so potent still honestly surprised me.
-Nerf the +movement of speed blaze from 1.85 to 1.65.
-Nerf the price of speed blaze from 145 to 155.


AA Changes
Let's be honest, Coco's aa is *. Not from a damage perspective as it's quite damaging but from a usability viewpoint. In what world will someone let you hold left click on them for several seconds outside of using speed blaze/slow blaze/hands to hug them.
-Revert Coco's hand damage. By this I mean to revert Coco's aa damage to double the value but half the speed. This gives meaning to actually hitting the aa as it has frontal damage.

The aa damage and aa attack speed upgrades are literally the same except attack speed is cheaper.
-Buff aa damage to 175 from 185.
-Nerf aa attack speed from 160 to 175.
-Nerf aa attack speed from +20% attack speed to 15%(7.5%/stage) (This is more of a cop out for now, I don't know if it's worth nerfing them item or just straight up removing it instead.)


Just some ideas to spring up a balance discussion, there's also the issue with barrier mag giving her a pseudo-tank role to bring up but that will have to be 'what do we replace it with' as a general discussion. Wraithstone might be good for that.

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 Post subject: Re: How to make Coco better and fun again
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:15 pm 
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I have recently played Coco a bit more again. She has never been my main at all, but I find her very fun character to play. My playstyle similar to my Chucho works quite well with her, even though probably is not the ideal.

For your ideas I am pretty neutral, dont seem life changing to me, so I could live with them or without... AA speed decrease would be a small nerf to slow on AA though. Probably not much though. Better Cocos can give better answers. :CocoWink:

I never even buy Ball Duration item, Ball already has base cooldown lower to Chuchos Sticky bomb and since I main Chucho the cooldown has felt short enough without it... Knockback on the other hand feels mandatory, the repositioning tactics and defence it gives are just gold and I always get that as the first thing.

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 Post subject: Re: How to make Coco better and fun again
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:11 pm 
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She's not fun? Speak for yourself.

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 Post subject: Re: How to make Coco better and fun again
 Post Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:40 am 
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Last time I played her she felt fine to me. Didn't seem like a priority character, at the very least.

I do agree that ball cooldown is extremely good, but I don't really have a problem with it. I rarely get speedup on Blaze until very lategame, if at all, but I don't claim to be the best Coco either. The AA change didn't feel substantially different to me when it happened and I don't think it would now.

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 Post subject: Re: How to make Coco better and fun again
 Post Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:17 am 
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Uhhh what? Nerfing Coco will somehow make her fun? Under what logic? Buffing heavenly fire, which nobody liked, will make her fun? I get that you miss the Coco that you fell in love with but if they changed every other original naut why revert Coco.

Nerfing CD ball will not somehow make Ball more diverse. Nobody is missing out on Blind or Heavenly fire. Most skillshots already have 1 if not 2 mandatory upgrades. Her Ball damage upgrade is over priced though. Most Cocos already upgrade ball to fit their playstyle anyway so I don't see it as an issue.

Her AA is fine were it is, nobody gets speed and damage because her AA upgrades are all fine, and if they do pick damage its always particles. Weaken and Lifesteal are great and while nobody picks slow its fine. I play my fair share of Coco and her AA isn't that hard to use, and is more useful for farming/turrets. She gets her work done with good balls and blaze.

Blaze is already a boring ability which is in need of more appealing options, speed gives her some options.

Heres what I got, Reduce solar on Ball damage, slight increase to ball travel speed, change heavenly fire to something close to Rocket's version were it produces a floating stream of particle that damages anything that passes it, no slow so we don't have to worry about pre-nerf heavenly fire (although that still could give it to much power). More interesting options for blaze, or just buff base blaze. Compared to other abilities it doesn't do much at base. Until upgraded its more useful as a slow than anything else. Other than that Coco is in a fine place. I play a good deal of Coco and think she has a few minor problems but her current iteration is fine. From what I can tell the few who bother to play Coco are not currently complaining about her.

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 Post subject: Re: How to make Coco better and fun again
 Post Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:33 am 
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S_Fits wrote:
slight increase to ball travel speed


i meant to say this same thing earlier and i agree.

Coco isn't as effective as she used to be because there's quite a few competing fast characters now. Unless you're playing noobs or fifth-dimensional chess, ball is pretty ineffective at medium/long range due to the ease at which people can dodge. A little bit of speed would help I think and would be a good starting point before doing bigger changes.

Slevens wrote:
-Nerf the +movement of speed blaze from 1.85 to 1.65.
-Nerf the price of speed blaze from 145 to 155.


How to make Coco (a) better (target) and fun (to kill) again :party:


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 Post subject: Re: How to make Coco better and fun again
 Post Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:05 am 
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It's just that Coco has been overlooked for some time. Main issues are that her attacks got less effective due to speed buffs in the game and her prices are too expensive for the direct benefit of the char. When sawblade damage got buffed from 215 to 180, this was the time coco also deserved that same treatment. It's the lategame where her survivability and reliability mold together but standalone items don't spike her enough to compete.

I don't want to see a heavenly fire buff from 50% to 100%, but something like 75%. Nerfing cd ball both in price and to 1s is too much obviously. This upgrade gets picked cause dmg and KB (for mandatory stun) are mandatory and other upgrades don't make the ball a lot stronger. If heavenly fire gets a notable buff you'll see ppl drop cd or KB.

I agree her AA ticks too fast, its the most difficult melee aa to hit cause of her floatyness and locked in movement. Nobody gets dmg or att speed cause particles are better. Lifesteal is sick cause 25% and passive healing from poke. CC effects far outweigh dps cause of duration. To me it deels wrong dps has to be hit perfectly while slow and draken stays 0.5s and 1.5s respectively.


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 Post subject: Re: How to make Coco better and fun again
 Post Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:39 pm 
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Japiepatatzakie wrote:
I agree her AA ticks too fast, its the most difficult melee aa to hit cause of her floatyness and locked in movement.


I don't quite understand this statement. A faster tick rate is better for things that are hard to hit.

Don't forget that unlike other melee characters, she can aim in 360 degrees which makes her melee much easier to hit if you account for it in your positioning/approach.

Japiepatatzakie wrote:
Nobody gets dmg or att speed cause particles are better. Lifesteal is sick cause 25% and passive healing from poke.


I believe her lifesteal is percent-based, and benefits from the damage upgrade. Damage + Attack Speed + Lifesteal makes her pretty tanky, which is a very fun build when it works.

Also, I just want to point out that with Damage and Attack Speed, she has among the highest DPS in the game. Some characters top her by sinking all 3 upgrade slots into DPS (lonestar, etc), while a couple others presumably have higher DPS, but they're quite conditional (ksenia comes to mind). Meanwhile, Coco has a free slot to get something interesting on top of it.


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 Post subject: Re: How to make Coco better and fun again
 Post Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:24 pm 
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I find Cocos AA to be one of the easiest to land (a bit like Max Focus). The hitbox is visible all the time and it doesnt require timing like some melee nauts do, very simple AA to use, and distance is the obvious weakness of it. Well, it depends on the opponent naut of course. Against a jumpy Gnaw or Froggy etc. its hard to land every tick of it of course...

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 Post subject: Re: How to make Coco better and fun again
 Post Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:29 pm 
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I agree with the OP on all the points except for the heavenly fire one, back when it did 100% it was mostly used as a commander Rocket missile. You'd fire it across a lane and it would apply about 400 DoT + slow CC to anything in that lane, hitting the ball was second priority lol.
Even it were to be balanced in the current meta somehow, I still wouldn't want to play against Coco with such a build nor would I have any fun using such a coco build.

What about the slow %, will heavenly fire still apply 50% of the blaze's slow with your buff suggestion? I assume it will since this was nerved for a good reason.


Also I'm not sure what you mean with the AA attack speed nerf, if the 160 is the old amount of attacks per minute wouldn't it be a buff to make it 175? Also Nautsbuilder says her attack speed = 428,6 attacks per minute?
On the topic of her AA, wouldn't a rabbit teeth upgrade make more sense? As you said AA is already very strong but hitting it is very inconsistent and out of the Coco's controll. AA would need to be rebalanced around such an upgrade though.

Barrier magazine is nice with lifesteal AA, yet wraith stone might be cool on some maps to snipe a creep with ball. :scoop:
I'm fine with either upgrade, though magazine probably makes more sense for her.

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