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 Post subject: Re: Immunity bubble
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 6:52 am 
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Sam! wrote:
Projectiles being slowed by time warp is one of the dumbest things about the ability because it also serves as a psuedo shield against them, allowing him to escape even easier than it already is. Ayla can never kill a fleeing yuri because the eye is never going to connect, same with hammer, rocket, hook etc etc. I've always thought time warp should only slow/speedup naut entities, not everything.

But really why does CC immunity exist on any character, other than to completely tableflip matchups? Swigs vs skolldir is so much in skol's favor, yet CC hook just laughs at it giving him safe hooks every time. Vinnie vs smiles is in smiles' favor, yet with CC immunity smiles isn't even a character anymore. It's not just yuri.


Agreeing with both Sam and Japie here as well; a single upgrade shouldn't counter an entire naut by themselves, as it's unhealthy balance. Derpl also getting complete immunity just for using a skill (not even an upgrade) also simply breaks a lot of nauts itself, and changing a lot of these to just reduced cc duration / potency would solve a lot of these implementation issues.

Sidenote: Ayla can't kill a yuri with bubble because eye won't hit *and* cause it reduces her dps of rage so drastically it's not worth engaging yuri unless you like suiciding :ayla: . This is just a problem with timewarp slows in general though, since most nauts have burst and then their aa does interval damage whereas well, rage just does interval damage ofc. It also slows down your cooldowns on skills, which quite honestly can make it overbearing if used properly by Yuri and Max (rae's is more forgiving since rift isn't a giant bubble that follows you, even given her drastic rift slow values).

Back on topic though, I feel like this issue might extend to other cc-immune nauts as well, like swiggs and rae's iron rifle; in rae's case, cc-immunity allows her to *not* get countered by such things as stun from frog when sniping, and is pretty vital to avoid hard counters (tho it expires quickly after dmg is done). The same could be said for Yuri, but bubble isn't hard countered by being a reduced cc (since it isn't interrupted) and still supports surrounding teammates with heals, speed-up of movement/dps/skill cooldowns, etc.

Given this information, I feel like this would probably be on a case-by-case basis per naut to make them more balanced. In Yuri's case though, it would probably be best to alter his current immunity into something else.

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 Post subject: Re: Immunity bubble
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:43 am 
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Before going over the idea of reduced CC, I do want to bring up something that sorta came to mind. I haven't tested it out first hand myself, yet, but doesn't Yuri'r time warp technically already reduce certain CC's?

Follow me here, time slows are infamous for increasing the duration of CCs such as snares and stuns, so, with flashforward, or even just with base speedup, it'd have the opposite effect, yeah? I wouldn't imagine it would be a stretch to assume the speedup effect would decrease the durations of enemy CC.
Obviously, a CC reduction would be more direct and potent against that type of stuff, and would also be able to affect things such as damage amp, but I also get the feeling a potential team-wide CC reduction along with the reduced CC duration from the flash forward, and add on top of that BKM, CC's duration would be decreased a pretty heavy amount, and assuming it affects thing such as knockback, it'd be difficult just to separate them from Yuri if they're coordinated.

In short, I'm not sure it's the best idea, it's definitely good in the realms of emphasizing Yuri as a support role, but I do think the idea is playing with fire.

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 Post subject: Re: Immunity bubble
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:37 pm 
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I believe (correct me if I'm wrong anyone) bubble does "reduce" the duration of the cc itself simply due to innate speedup bubble has, but it doesn't reduce the potency of the cc itself; that is, a 30% slow may last 1.5s instead of 2s, but will still be 30%.

His cc immunity currently, as well, doesn't apply to teammates; it would actually make more sense for him as a support to help reduce teammate cc potency as well, but the values would have to be tweaked as to make it not too overpowering as your concern indicates. It's an idea tho, and one that would solve the issue of his complete immunity while still making it a very viable (albeit maybe necessary, tho you could say the same for immunity too) choice.

Edit: Also interactions with BKM could be problematic, which would also have to be tested :huh:

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 Post subject: Re: Immunity bubble
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 11:25 pm 
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I would assume a change this big would be tested in the first place, I just feel a bit of a concern that something like this might be too helpful, y'know?

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 Post subject: Re: Immunity bubble
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 7:29 am 
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Pheoniz wrote:
Before going over the idea of reduced CC, I do want to bring up something that sorta came to mind. I haven't tested it out first hand myself, yet, but doesn't Yuri'r time warp technically already reduce certain CC's?

Follow me here, time slows are infamous for increasing the duration of CCs such as snares and stuns, so, with flashforward, or even just with base speedup, it'd have the opposite effect, yeah? I wouldn't imagine it would be a stretch to assume the speedup effect would decrease the durations of enemy CC.

Yeah. The base FF and its upgrade work in reciprocals, however. Time slows become ridiculously more effective with each percent while speedups I'd say are less effective per percent as you go up (while still totalling more than before obviously). With FF you basically cut off 20% of a CC's duration. That's pretty good but on top of that it then multiplicatively (ie. not as good as additively in this case) stacks with any CC reductions.

Here's why that isn't so hot:
Say SCD was a very potent 50%: you're only really cutting 50% down to 45(.4545...)% with the base speedup or 40% with FF; that's at most, going off the lengthiest CC out there from memory (a 1.8s Derpl trap), cutting off an extra 0.18s or so of debuff duration. If you consider just FF's 15% speed increase then it cuts off JUST a bit less than 0.1s from that Derpl trap. Any shorter CC and the benefit is increasingly unremarkable. The benefits of FF are of course in its multi-buff nature but as far as CC reduction goes I think this item would take the lion's share of potency in that department.

Double-stacking in this situation is really overdoing it and overthinking the synergy, you'd be taking FF for its other benefits with that extra CC reduction as icing on top in this case. Or you're taking FF on its own for that significant solo CC reduction and skipping SCD. Taking both for the same reason has really diminishing returns I feel, and benefits you a lot less than it'd seem. This is all theorycraft but I can see this being unremarkably overkill. The better this item is, the less good the synergy becomes to a point where it means very little that you took both items just to deal with debuffs.

Pheoniz wrote:
I would assume a change this big would be tested in the first place, I just feel a bit of a concern that something like this might be too helpful, y'know?

Of course, I certainly wouldn't want another 6s CD Warp situation.

Nekomian wrote:
Edit: Also interactions with BKM could be problematic, which would also have to be tested :huh:

BKM entirely depends on how they put this CC reduction into the mix. It'd be easy to implement and wouldn't cause bugs (though would be awkward to future-proof for more CC reduction effects) but could be broken if they made it additive (good god). If it was multiplicative then it'd still be strong, but would suffer the same diminishing returns above. At that point with BKM and 50% SCD FF would have next to no impact at all.

Nekomian wrote:
I believe (correct me if I'm wrong anyone) bubble does "reduce" the duration of the cc itself simply due to innate speedup bubble has, but it doesn't reduce the potency of the cc itself; that is, a 30% slow may last 1.5s instead of 2s, but will still be 30%.

Yes, it's just making you go faster in time. A 30% amp is still a 30% amp even if you experience that amp faster. That said, the speed boost from FF does kind of counteract slows already so that's worth keeping in mind.


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 Post subject: Re: Immunity bubble
 Post Posted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 12:59 am 
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TBH Yuri as a whole is a relic of an era that has long-since past. Everything about him is either too weak or too strong, and as a result he's an absolute memefest of a character who does everything and nothing while both singlehandedly winning and losing the game.

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