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 Post subject: Rant on the competitive scene
 Post Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2015 1:52 am 
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DISCLAIMER: this is a rant, I wrote down the first thing that came from my head. This is my current honest and unedited opinion (not fact)

In short I'm not sure I can be bothered wasting my time on the competitive scene for this game anymore. It has such good potential to be a great, fun, unique competitive eSport experience but the playerbase, from my experience, doesn't want it badly enough; and you need to want it.

It's taken me a good few years to open my eyes and see that people aren't motivated enough for this game to ever be a competitive game. There are some great players, some really awesome people who really care about this side of Awesomenauts still and I truly still want this out of Awesomenauts because I have a desire to be a part of it and help make it a reality. But anything I do ends in failure and a sort of fizzle.

This has been the experience of myself trying to run tournaments and generate some enthusiasm from the community, and I'm aware I may not have done a great job at any point, but the shear amount of times a team has disbanded mid-tournament, teams being uncooperative and difficult to contact, it's so disheartening.

This is not a blanket statement, as I've said there are some teams that it's been a pleasure to work with, but the vast majority look at the top team at the time and say "we can't possibly beat them" instead of asking and working out "how are we going to beat?". That isn't competitive, that's Rage Quitting. When the vast majority of teams don't even have the right attitude to competitive play there's something wrong with the scene.

I come from the Smash Bros. competitive scene and the difference is staggering. The best players are not unbeatable here, there are people who love the game and strive to be better, and the top players are almost always contested to prove their worth. The underdogs don't decide if they're going to lose before the match, they play to win, and I don't see this enough from the Nauts competitive scene.

I honestly don't think it's worth investing resources into anymore. The community, at least in my eyes, doesn't desire it enough to make it work like in the early days of competitive smash bros.
I really want to host more tournys, I love doing it. Not a single one I have found to be that rewarding apart from hosting the streams which I can do without tournaments.

Please let me know if you agree or not, what were my tournaments like? Were they any good? Compared to other competitive events is it worth it? Do you want me to keep hosting tournaments? Will anyone actually read this? Nobody looks in this sub forum.

I am struggling to see that anyone actually appreciates them apart from the select few teams I was talking about, and even then there are better tournaments run more smoothly for them to appreciate.

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 Post subject: Re: Rant on the competitive scene
 Post Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2015 4:42 am 
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The main problem here is the actual game. its passive, has awful balance and is very boring to both watch and play competitively. Ronimo not only don't really care about competitive nauts (apart from giving out roboscoops to tourney hosts and the alien ware cup in which they didt even get top players who know about competitive help set it up and run it) they almost balance the game around everything apart from competitive. For a low player base game that progressively changes debatably for the worst its very hard to stay motivated to keep playing especially when tourneys are so infrequent.


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 Post subject: Re: Rant on the competitive scene
 Post Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2015 8:54 am 
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Xytacor wrote:
apart from giving out roboscoops to tourney hosts


This is not true. Ronimo reserve these for Ronimo-official events, not fan made tournaments. (I know, I asked for one to give out on the off chance they said yes)


On top of that I understand that it's hard to stay motivated for a game that continually changes away from what you initially enjoyed; it's very disheartening when players realise they don't want to play anymore during something you've sunk a lot of time and effort into.

And right now I'm thinking of one player who has a lot of respect from me, even though he grew to hate the game and wanted to quit he was the main driving force for getting one of my tournys done. Mad respect for him for having such a great attitude. So many others just quit and leave us to sort out the mess.

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trinary wrote:
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 Post subject: Re: Rant on the competitive scene
 Post Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2015 10:13 am 
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When I came back from my year long break starting August last year, the competitive scene seemed to have turned into a wasteland of little actual competition. I lost all my contacts in the meantime which might have skewed my perception of the issue, but I can't seem to find many good players/teams still around. What teams are even relevant at this point? I watched some tournaments and was not at all impressed with the skill level.

Dont mistake this for some sort of banter, my point is that I remember the old teams being much more profiled, active and willing to scrim regularly.



To directly reply to your post, Burrhe: ya definitively people are lazy af

Never played in your tournaments but you did well afaik

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 Post subject: Re: Rant on the competitive scene
 Post Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2015 7:35 pm 
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I haven't actually participated in any of your tournaments – you always seemed to host tournaments when I was taking a break from the game. And now, I am done with playing in competitive.

burrhe wrote:
...but the playerbase, from my experience, doesn't want it badly enough...


This is because there is hardly any structure. When I was in competitive, I was dying to play in tournaments and scrim. Those thing were very sporadic and rare.

The reason why I started running tournament in Awesomenauts was because of this and the fact that I didn't think that others were doing the competitive scene justice at the time (which probably wasn't even their fault because of how unstructured it was to begin with).

burrhe wrote:
...I truly still want this out of Awesomenauts because I have a desire to be a part of it and help make it a reality. But anything I do ends in failure and a sort of fizzle.


If everything you do truly ends in failure, then I think your problem might be that your tournament ends when the winner is crowned (or that is what I assume). You should take the time to evaluate what you did, how you contributed to the community, and what you can do moving forward. That doesn't just mean getting feedback from people, although that is important too.

burrhe wrote:
This has been the experience of myself trying to run tournaments and generate some enthusiasm from the community, and I'm aware I may not have done a great job at any point, but the shear amount of times a team has disbanded mid-tournament, teams being uncooperative and difficult to contact, it's so disheartening.


My experience running tournaments has been incredible. I feel like the people that I target within the community are very enthusiastic about what I do and they enjoy it. Every single tournament I have done has been very successful with each one topping the next – and I keep improving my skills and knowledge with each one which is super important for me.

I agree, teams can be uncooperative at times, but this is partly the problem of how you structure your tournament. Being authoritative also helps with this. Don't try to please everyone.

burrhe wrote:
...I honestly don't think it's worth investing resources into anymore. The community, at least in my eyes, doesn't desire it enough to make it work...


Every time I come up with an idea for a tournament, I am stoked to run it. When the tournament starts, I am very enthusiastic and into it. Then around the mid-way point and just up until the end, my energy sort of dips down a little (which is natural with the stress and problems that arise). At this point I always say out loud "I am never doing this again!" But as soon as it reaches the finals, and witness people's enjoyment for the event – and look back and actually see how successful it was – then I am ready to come up with ideas for the next event.

Like I said though, it's important to evaluate what went down before you think about moving on to the next step.

burrhe wrote:
I really want to host more tournys, I love doing it. Not a single one I have found to be that rewarding apart from hosting the streams which I can do without tournaments.


If you want to host more tournaments, then do it. I read a post or heard a comment – I can't recall exactly which it was – that said something along the lines of "you shouldn't be running Awesomenauts tournaments for yourself, it should only be about doing it for others"... LOL no. F that.

It should be ALL about you. Do what YOU want. Do what is enjoyable for YOU. You will never be able to satisfy every single person, but you WILL be able to satisfy yourself.

(I just did a 2v2 deathmatch tournament – despite people in competitive thinking tdm is absolutely stupid – with a 3 day notice and had a 63% turnout rate on 100 team sign ups.)

Yes, watching the community grow and entertaining others is the focus – which is why facilitating your event towards the community is important – but that will come on it's own.

If you are not liking what your past tournaments have done, sit down and figure out what the problem is and, if you host another tournament, then do it without that problem.

---

Either way, good luck with whatever you end up doing. Like I said, I haven't really played in your tournaments, so I can't give you specific feedback. But, if you have any questions or need any advice or such, I'm always happy to help! :thumb:

My own disclaimer: please ignore the unstructured, ramble-yness of this post. I'm in between finals right now, so my mind is in scrambles. Just thought I'd voice my word.


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 Post subject: Re: Rant on the competitive scene
 Post Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2015 6:31 am 
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Im hoping this overdrive expansion will bring some hope for smaller teams to thrive to win and a bigger playerbase. Maybe then the competitive nauts will start to make its comeback.

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 Post subject: Re: Rant on the competitive scene
 Post Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2015 9:51 am 
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The competitive scene was doing great during AAC2. There were some clear top teams and a whole bunch actively trying to get to that level.

I dont think there are enough tournaments to keep everyone interested.

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 Post subject: Re: Rant on the competitive scene
 Post Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2015 2:28 pm 
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Honestly the whole reason why the "competitive scene" fizzled out is because there really isn't enough tournaments to ever see consistent teams show up and play. The last year has seen fewer tournaments then I can ever remember.

If Ronimo really wants to see this game head into a competitive environment we need consistency, not some fan made tournament held every six months (although they are good, and I've had fun playing in them). They should try and bring back a tourney structure like the APL days, where you would have a season and different divisions. Have weekly games that people can actually spectate to get the hype going. I don't know that's just my two cents.

Also sad to hear you won't be making any more tourneys burrhe, you were one of the best hosters in my eyes

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 Post subject: Re: Rant on the competitive scene
 Post Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2015 7:31 pm 
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Kooltje wrote:
I dont think there are enough tournaments to keep everyone interested.


I've played for maybe 2 years now (and only recently became not trash) but have only competed in 4 tournaments (and only 1 by Ronimo). I would like to seem Ronimo host some of their own tournaments like I hear they did way back in the APL cat days. You know, actually provide some competitive dev support? The game seems to be dying from a competitive perspective and I have recently been trying to move the game itself into a naturally competitive position rather than warping a competitive scene around a casual game. Just give the players something to do and strive toward because online ladder is so unappealing and unrewarding it is pushing good players to abandon the game if they haven't left already

>http://www.awesomenauts.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=42943

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 Post subject: Re: Rant on the competitive scene
 Post Posted: Thu Dec 24, 2015 6:33 am 
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rofyalfrycook, from what ive seen ronimo puts most of their eggs in the awesomecup basket. i think its a smart move considering there are lots of fanmade tourneys.

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