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 Post subject: Fixing Qi'Tara
 Post Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:32 pm 
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The problems regarding Qi'Tara can't be overcome by just tweaking numbers:

1- Gimmicky upgrades, in the sense that it does not match anything in the character at all
2- Kit lacking coherence with character design
3- Being AoE DPS while trying to be an assassin
4- Complete overlapment with Nibbs
5- "Explosive Clone Effect"™ with being able to teleport behind a turret
6- Lack of depth in kit

1- Reset on creep pickup, +20% movementspeed for allies on chakram, +200% minion damage on chakram? Hello? I know this is just a beta but holy damn these upgrades make no sense at all, they have no place in her role and kit. The reason I do not just let it slide because it is beta is because of a Ronimo employee saying that "It is a cool strategy, you become more powerful around creep areas" when people asked what the hell Salty Seal was. If that guy is doing kit design get him out of there, just do another design a naut contest. Also who thought trying to justify blind was a good idea after years of blind removal posts? Blind has no place in Awesomenauts, it is completely unreliable CC because nothing requires vision. Unless you brute force it to work by making a specific upgrade (silent killer), forced synergy is horrible and lazy game design.

5- So the Explosive Clone Effect™ is the concept of shooting yourself in the foot by implementing an idea into a character but doing it half-assed or without coherence regarding the kit so that you can't use that idea anymore on other characters where it would have actually worked. This happens with her being able to go behind turrets but not actually having a way out or accomplishing anything.

So here is my proposal, fix and rework:

Mobility: Cloaked in Mystery/Hapless Prey
When Qi'Tara stands still for 2 seconds she becomes stealthed. Qi'Tara loses stealth when she moves or when she attacks.

While stealth can be very hard to deal with in other online games in Awesomenauts it is an exception, you can still damage and therefore see a stealthed naut, it is not guaranteed safety. The only thing that makes stealth so dangerous in Awesomenauts is the ability to gank. When you can't move that aspect is also weakened. Then why even add it? I have an argument regarding role assignment and character design: What Qi'Tara lacks and what can make her stand out is her surprise factor. I also wanted to explore the bug side of Qi'Tara, her being a praying mantis. It would even look great because she already has the cool standing still cloaked visual. The Ronimo team also said that they wanted her to be a calm/frenzy kind of character. This is how you implement that into the kit.

Poisonous blades:
-Movement speed penalty removed
Upgrades:
. +13% base damage (1/2)
. +30% attack speed for 2s when uncloaking
. +100% faster cloaking speed
. Gain +4% base damage for every unit affected by your poison
. Poison damage ticks 25% faster when an enemy Awesomenaut is under 40% health
. No collision while cloaked

Chakram: (Perhaps change name to Chakram Charm)
-Removed AoE
-Now deals 350 damage only on teleport
-Chakram now checks if the teleport is possible by checking if path crosses enemy team border (like Ix)
-Slow removed
- Enemy Awesomenauts marked by Chakram have their damage against Qi'tara weakened by 30% (To give more 1v1 potential)
-0.1s invincibility frame (safety, 1v1 potential)
Upgrades:
. +25% Range
. Deal 6% current health damage when hitting an enemy and 6% missing health when teleporting to an enemy (1/2)
. +10% weaken against Qi'Tara (1/2)
. +15% slow while enemies are marked by Chakram (1/2)
. Enemies marked by Chakram gain 8% increased damage (1/2)
. Applies -75% healing debuff for 4s to enemies after teleporting.

Seven star strike: (rename to Feeding Frenzy or something like that, because she likes food and she does not have stars let alone seven of them :chew: )

Upgrades:
. +20% movement speed during Frenzy
. +30% cooldown speed up while cloaked
. +20% attack speed during Frenzy (1/2)
. Reset duration after killing an unit during Frenzy
. +20% shield while not attacking during Frenzy (1/2)
. +15% lifesteal of all damage done during Frenzy, including damage over time

Sorry for the ranty start but thanks for reading and discuss!
Ronimo if you ever want this kind of feedback earlier I can always playtest because I live nearby.

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 Post subject: Re: Fixing Qi'Tara
 Post Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:34 pm 
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InstapantsMan wrote:
Mobility: Cloaked in Mystery/Hapless Prey
When Qi'Tara stands still for 2 seconds she becomes stealthed. Qi'Tara loses stealth when she moves or when she attacks.


So you have to stop all gameplay just to get a stealth effect that ends when you start playing the actual game again? Doesn't sound too effective or fun, especially when she's meant to be rather high speed. I think you'd rather want to bind the invisibility to another skill like Seven Star Strike.

Chakram still seems rather boring, just another fast projectile. It might be more interesting to add a boomerang-like effect to it instead.


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 Post subject: Re: Fixing Qi'Tara
 Post Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:54 pm 
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Please think about the impact of your changes before you propose them:

The whole reason Leon's Cloaking Skin was nerfed to have a limited duration was because he could sit in one spot and camp opponents without any real fear, so suggesting the exact thing on Qi'Tara is a waste of time—it will never be accepted unless it is nerfed so massively as to be useless.

Please also do not balance around aesthetics: Clunk's nuclear explosion should annihilate everything in the map with little effort, but during gameplay that would be slightly absurd. Create skills and interactions before designing the appearance of a 'Naut around that.

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 Post subject: Re: Fixing Qi'Tara
 Post Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 2:04 pm 
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Ploxing wrote:
InstapantsMan wrote:
Mobility: Cloaked in Mystery/Hapless Prey
When Qi'Tara stands still for 2 seconds she becomes stealthed. Qi'Tara loses stealth when she moves or when she attacks.


So you have to stop all gameplay just to get a stealth effect that ends when you start playing the actual game again? Doesn't sound too effective or fun, especially when she's meant to be rather high speed. I think you'd rather want to bind the invisibility to another skill like Seven Star Strike.

Chakram still seems rather boring, just another fast projectile. It might be more interesting to add a boomerang-like effect to it instead.


I wouldn't consider it "stopping all gameplay" because using the passive is gameplay. When standing still and gaining invis you still consider the spot that you decided to go invis on and your surroundings. But I do get your point in the sense that it is hard to set up because usually assassins are all high mobility. But it is an attempt to set her apart and give her an unique role and function.

I like the idea to put in on Seven Star Strike but that would just give her mobile stealth something that ksenia and leon already abuse. If I were to implement it though I would let her stealth if she does not attack during SSS.

Agree on the Chakram though. But keep in mind that we should try to make a kit that is more coherent to the character design and serves as a unique role in the roster. So the changes should be made with Ronimo's programming hours in mind.

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 Post subject: Re: Fixing Qi'Tara
 Post Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 2:16 pm 
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The Lord Protector wrote:
Please think about the impact of your changes before you propose them:

The whole reason Leon's Cloaking Skin was nerfed to have a limited duration was because he could sit in one spot and camp opponents without any real fear, so suggesting the exact thing on Qi'Tara is a waste of time—it will never be accepted unless it is nerfed so massively as to be useless.

Please also do not balance around aesthetics: Clunk's nuclear explosion should annihilate everything in the map with little effort, but during gameplay that would be slightly absurd. Create skills and interactions before designing the appearance of a 'Naut around that.


When Leon gets tagged while "camping" he is able to move away, leaving him unpunished. To Qi'Tara however it is a bigger problem because she would be forced to leave.

I used Qi'Tara's character design to rework around the character, with the kit and aesthetic in mind. Character and kit design go both ways, you can create a kit around a character or a character around a kit. There isn't a design path that is superior to the other.

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 Post subject: Re: Fixing Qi'Tara
 Post Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 2:52 pm 
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Now, honestly, I really like the idea of Qi'Tara going invisible when stationary. I think this level of uniqueness is partially what's missing in the contemporary designs. Something intuitive enough, yet bringing something new to the table.

The Lord Protector wrote:
Please think about the impact of your changes before you propose them:

The whole reason Leon's Cloaking Skin was nerfed to have a limited duration was because he could sit in one spot and camp opponents without any real fear, so suggesting the exact thing on Qi'Tara is a waste of time—it will never be accepted unless it is nerfed so massively as to be useless.

Please also do not balance around aesthetics: Clunk's nuclear explosion should annihilate everything in the map with little effort, but during gameplay that would be slightly absurd. Create skills and interactions before designing the appearance of a 'Naut around that.


Although I respect You, The Lord Protector, and I have a plenty of fond memories of our old conversations, I am sadly afraid that Your scepticism has reached too high of a level. We are all frustrated to see some parts of our beloved game go, but I would like to ask You not to give up just yet.

Let me say it here. A game like Awesomenauts is not supposed to be perfectly balanced. This is not a minimalistic game of elegant design, one that would be admired for its simple yet perfectly intertwined mechanics and depth. We, or at least so I thought, fell in love with a fun and quirky game pretending to be a Saturday morning cartoon from the 80s.

I always thought that the game "feel" was significantly more important for Awesomenauts. That it wasn't about having labyrinthine ways of calculating damage based on constantly changing percentages of other constantly changing variables whose way of constant changing changes constantly, based on other randomly changing variables, which is basically what we have now.

What got us here was the obsession with balance. Something that is so subjective, given a game like this (the amount of rules in most video games is not comparable to the amount of rules of games like chess or go). And from our conversations, I always assumed that we were on the same side in this argument. In games like this, balance should never stay in the way of fun. And when You look at Qi'Tara's visuals, it's hard not to imagine her being significantly more stealthy.

And, yes, there is a difference between a static invisible enemy and invisible enemy moving around the map. Then again, I never had a problem with Leon anyway, or any of the 1059761 "unfun" mechanics in this (and not just this) game, simply considering them something that makes the game stand out. I don't like to be told what I should consider fun, just because it's standard. Guess I'm just weird.

I would like the game to stay true to its roots, find its way back to the original feel and... then I think it's time to move on. I liked it when games were sold as finished products. Such that, if they were great, You just knew would still be great twenty years later.

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 Post subject: Re: Fixing Qi'Tara
 Post Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:32 pm 
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Why are we having a discussion about the fundamentals of balance on the topic of subjective game design when all I said was "balance around the game before you balance around the lore"?

Something can be both fun and balanced—often, the latter produces the former. We do not need to start making things realistic, for I do not fancy a world where Sentry's miniature collapsing stellar event can rip the skin from Lonestar's face in 0.034 pictoseconds, because that would be realistic. Realism is not why we play Awesomenauts (or, I hope it is not). See what I said about Clunk.

We could make Qi'Tara a stealth-based 'Naut, but I do not think doing it by replicating something so hated by the community that it was removed after literally years of complaining would be a good way to go about it.

I would be all for making Awesomenauts this party game where balance takes second place to flashy visuals and over-the-top craziness, but until Ronimo actually does that, I will keep balancing around what we have.

Qi'Tara is as bland as they come, though, so that is not helping. She is the oatmeal of Awesomenauts.

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Say no to SAM wrote:
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Nekomian wrote:
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DeezNauts wrote:
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