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 Post subject: Re: Patch notes 4.6 beta 1
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:19 pm 
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Location: In my palace, mixing my martinis with paint thinner and a healthy squirt of epoxy adhesive.
KidaFeru wrote:
I TOLD YOUS ALL AND NO ONE BELIEVED ME

THE END IS NIGH

Nah, dear.

I said this way before it was in the Google Doc. I do own a marvellous crystal ball, after all.

Can we also stop pretending that a 100 HP shield is going to make the blindest bit of difference—I recall people complaining about how awful Iron Rifle is and that's far greater a barrier (on someone that can keep their distance, no less).

Its only use will be as a cleanse and you know it.

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 Post subject: Re: Patch notes 4.6 beta 1
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:28 pm 
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InstapantsMan wrote:
(2)- the charge-up mechanic instead of the consume mechanic.

A good proposition, but unfortunately Jasper said the game engine doesn't have such mechanics in it.


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 Post subject: Re: Patch notes 4.6 beta 1
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:27 pm 
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Sevenecho wrote:
InstapantsMan wrote:
(2)- the charge-up mechanic instead of the consume mechanic.

A good proposition, but unfortunately Jasper said the game engine doesn't have such mechanics in it.


Yeh I remember that they said that but I don't understand why its not achievable. Please tell me if i'm absolutely wrong, I do not have a great understanding of coding but Jimmy has the same releasable channel. The only difference is that the Rocket Launch releasable channel increases a value along the channel and does the action at the end. I don't understand how this is unachievable.

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 Post subject: Re: Patch notes 4.6 beta 1
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:46 pm 
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Sevenecho wrote:
Quote:
100 is easily breakable, but is still usable by qi'tara to avoid CC, until she gets hit too much.

That's the point. 100hp is far from "too much", such small numbers are referring to "chip damage", poking. You get this damage easely here and there from turrets or even from aa of silenced Naut. Since SSS no longer speeds Qitara up, her shield won't help her much. I would rather exchange it for "cc immunity until Qitara attacks" - that will be more reliable for escaping and sometimes for initiations. If you still think it's too much - think about her painfully losing her main attacking skill (full time or partially, until she decides it's enough close to you) and lifesteal in exchange for safety.

Quote:
I mean she was kind of meant to be a "spam-machine".

That's such a sha... relief she doesn't have access to the Overdrive Gear then :) But ok, I won't argue on that.
Quote:
Also the ability is pretty lacklustered in impact (it only does damage, and not THAT much of it)

Since waterclone is AOE attack, it does just needed damage for it. Now it deals 360. Make it 500 - and you will get Clunk. Very squishy yet mobile Clunk ready to explode in 0.9s.
So may be the problem is we need more utilities for the skill instead of making it spammable? I'm not trying to be an expert, so it is not a rhetorical question - I would really interested in seeing speeding up allies if they walk through the bubble, weakening enemies and so on. Raw damage is boring and TWO spammable skills makes fights annoying vs nauts having them.


I guess I am a bit sloppy in my explanations:

Qi'Tara's shield must not exceed chip damage amounts. Because how are you going to counter her when she gets on you if she has a 200 shield that is also CC immune, Lifesteal and a TP-back? Currently the way to counter her is to hold cooldowns until she teleports in and then burst her down. It is okay she gets safety, but it needs to be in chip amounts otherwise she will be uncounterable. Also SSS no longer speeds her up but her AA also does not slow her down anymore, so it is about the same. And in matchups where you need speed you can still take mobile fryer.

Your rework for Salty Seal is fine but unnessecary.


Alright so about Explosive Clone:

I think its fine. smaller >7.8 movement speed characters have no hard time dodging it and the slower bigger nauts have less harm tanking it. It also requires Dizzy to get in close with those big nauts with CC.

In this beta if slow improves to something like 20% every upgrade in the row is worth picking up and offers some other style of play. Dungarees lowers your burst and because of the slowly recharging dashes you can't always make use of the low cooldown of Dungarees.

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 Post subject: Re: Patch notes 4.6 beta 1
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:00 pm 
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Quote:
Wrench Smack, is now a ranged base attack
Lily of the Isle, projectile speed and range increased by 30%
Monkey hand, range increase increased from 25% to 40%
Black Hole Sun, projectile distance increased by 15%
Camouflage tent, now increases projectile speed and range by 15%
Bush fire, range increased by 25%.


Not the direction the game should go in, I think. Poke comps are already super annoying, turtle-y, boring, and effective. The answer shouldn't be to sprinkle more poke/long range into the game.


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 Post subject: Re: Patch notes 4.6 beta 1
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:43 pm 
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Quote:
Because how are you going to counter her when she gets on you if she has a 200 shield that is also CC immune, Lifesteal and a TP-back?

Like we always do when we are encountering assassins - don't let Qitara catch you alone. If you do - you deserved your fate. You might noticed what The Lord Protector mentioned about shields, I myself find Iron Rifle upgrade handy in some situations but can't disagree that such amount of protection is literally putting me on a very thin ice. Two characters shooting twice - that's all 200hp shield could sustain. And then Qitara is doomed by tails, rifts, slows or all of them simultaneously. Any active movements of her victim prevents her from success, like in case of Nibbs' Breath. Jumping and juking are helping evading some of her damage, since bug lady is just a melee Naut.

Quote:
smaller >7.8 movement speed characters have no hard time dodging it

Team work and wise placing? She's fast enough to activate a waterclone right in the place enemy is going or forced to be.

Quote:
Dungarees lowers your burst

How come? As I remember there's only one damage upgrade and it's mandatory in 99%.

Quote:
slowly recharging dashes

The new walkbot helps you regain dashes quickly without leaving the battlefield, isn't it?


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 Post subject: Re: Patch notes 4.6 beta 1
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:21 pm 
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robochase6000 wrote:
Quote:
Wrench Smack, is now a ranged base attack
Lily of the Isle, projectile speed and range increased by 30%
Monkey hand, range increase increased from 25% to 40%
Black Hole Sun, projectile distance increased by 15%
Camouflage tent, now increases projectile speed and range by 15%
Bush fire, range increased by 25%.


Not the direction the game should go in, I think. Poke comps are already super annoying, turtle-y, boring, and effective. The answer shouldn't be to sprinkle more poke/long range into the game.


yes

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 Post subject: Re: Patch notes 4.6 beta 1
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:25 pm 
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Sevenecho wrote:
Quote:
Because how are you going to counter her when she gets on you if she has a 200 shield that is also CC immune, Lifesteal and a TP-back?

Like we always do when we are encountering assassins - don't let Qitara catch you alone. If you do - you deserved your fate.


Yeh but how does a group even counter her if the shielding takes a significant amount of time and resources to even damage her, let alone that the CC immunity is harder to knock off.

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 Post subject: Re: Patch notes 4.6 beta 1
 Post Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:15 am 
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I've tested Derpl out some more and I will say he has definitely not been gutted, but is a bit on the weak side in beta. Here's my thoughts:

  • Size nuke: Perfect in beta, don't change it.
  • No CC immunity outside of siege mode: Again, perfect, don't change.
  • Gravity and max fall speed reduced by 20%: Max fall speed reduction needs reverting, it guts him on AI 205 and Sorona and feels really clunky. The gravity reduction I could get used to, but I don't feel like it is accomplishing the intended goals. I'd either revert it and try a different change or increase it to 30% and see if it has the desired impact. I've started to go off it a bit because it feels kinda off becoming floatier in siege mode.
  • Fatcat cooldown increased 4>5sec, price increased from 185>200 solar: The CD change is really nice, it stops you getting a 2nd fatcat out in fights a lot of the time, hurting it's sustained damage, which is something you should be buying DPS upgrades for. I think the 200 solar cost needs changing so that the ability to purchase it out of the gate is consistent. Like I said in my earlier post, either drop it by 5 solar or increase it by 15 solar and we're golden.
  • DPS cat cost changes: The upgrades feel usable now, which is a huge improvement. They're still not all that strong though, I'd reduce the cost of the attackspeed upgrade from 150>135 solar. That should do for now, it gives us a way into building DPS cats.
  • Trap base snare duration reduced from 1.6>1.2sec: In all honesty it feels fine earlygame, although it hurts a lot after BKM is purchased
  • Snare upgrade merged to one stage of +0.4sec snare duration: I think this upgrade feels a bit too good as a rush upgrade now (due to new mechanics), but also creates issues vs BKM lategame. I would change it to 2 stages of +0.3sec snare duration for 135 solar per stage. This reduces the reliability of the 1 stage rush, whilst also retaining the current situation where the upgraded snare duration against BKM opponents is the same as the base snare duration.
  • 50% self slow whilst deploying trap: Didn't even see this one enter the doc, it's god awful, revert please. It pretty much kills traps as a skill.
  • Trap cast time reduced from 0.6>0.4sec: Revert please, this short arming time pretty much nullifies the addition of a visual and a cast time. Just keep the current arming time and don't add a slowdown

As for the rest of the trap changes, I see 2 possible directions to take traps spawning:

  1. Lock Aim during cast time, lock cats during cast time and increase the range slightly so that the edge of the trap hitbox touches Derpl's gun.
  2. Have traps spawn at the center of Derpl, however they briefly have a larger hitbox on spawn that matches the size of the new trap animation.

The first idea is basically to polish the current iteration. The moving during the aim feels really clunky imo and removes a lot of the intended counterplay. The range is also a little short atm, like just a tiny bit longer would make it feel a lot better. The second option is to basically go down the route of making a fair snarebumping mechanic. The new trap animation gave me the idea, I think this has the potential to look better visually than what is in beta atm, and it accomplishes a similar goal to the current beta traps.

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 Post subject: Re: Patch notes 4.6 beta 1
 Post Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:40 am 
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Answering Machine attackspeed doesn't work any more.

New Yoolip AA is a mess, feels like a nerf as the huge deadzones and mediocre range isn't a big enough tradeoff for the hard nerfing of his amp and noticeable DPS nerf. I'd rather you change Dinos honestly, they've been a huge factor for Yoolip's polarizing performance. If we keep this ranged AA he needs upward/downward aiming. Even if you add some invisible "weapon" node to him to rotate with his aim so he can fling gears up and down it'd be swell.

Could new Head in Jar just be attackspeed instead? It'd be a lot easier to describe in the tooltip and would just feel better than an invisible damage increase. Double Rocket's knockback value is overnerfed as well, could do with an increase given you're getting like zero damage out of using both rockets due to the new mechanic.


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