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 Post subject: 4.6 Beta- Rocket and Derpl Personal Thoughts
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:56 pm 
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Commander Rocket
While I agree that Commander Rocket is too powerful, I personally think we are doing too much to him at once with little connection between all the changes. In my opinion, the two things that make Commander Rocket different and fun to play as are:
a.) Gravity Interaction (Rocket Jumps and interacting with acceleration)
b.) Ranged Burst
I think we are nerfing his core identity too much when we are making the current changes. Commander Rocket isn't sold to people as a top tier brawler or a weird poke and peel character. He's sold because he can fly across the map with a rocket launcher. In my opinion:
1. We need to not nerf his self-knockback, as it is what makes him who he is and nerfing it too much removes his identity
2. Most definitely not change Head in Jar to this iteration of it as it is just going to become a must have pick AND encourage people to play around the unique aspects of his basic attack
These two changes need to not go through. As replacements, we should probably nerf Commander Rocket's health instead of the self-knockback and improve Commander Rocket's ability to participate in extended fights in some other way. For example, making Rocket's basic attacks perhaps apply a stacking debuff to his targets, applying more stacks the more rockets he has charged. Maybe a stacking Damage Amp buff that provides a 1/2% damage increase to the target per rocket charged for X seconds, up to a maximum of 8/16%. This would improve Rocket's brawling capabilities or at least his ability to participate in extended fights without encouraging people to not make use of his unique basic attack.

Derpl
Maybe I'm missing something big here, but are these not just nothing but nerfs. Outside of Kitty Catsuit and CAT package, these are just big nerfs. Not small nerfs. Big nerfs. Derpl was balanced on certain stages and strong on others. What will this do? Make him weak on certain stages and just balanced on others. These changes don't actually fix any of Derpl's issues, they just nerf him. They just decrease his power level and leave him out to dry. What we should be doing is actually trying to fix Derpl's binary state by making large CHANGES (not nerfs) to his abilities. This is a big balance patch, so it's the perfect place to do it.
1. We need to give Derpl adequate tools to function in maps where he can't just control the center of the map by rotating in Siege between lanes and due to the small state of lanes
2. We need to give Derpl's opponents windows of opportunity to abuse Derpl while still punishing them hard enough to ensure Derpl can have "power moments"
In short, these changes aren't helping Derpl. They're just nerfing him and probably making him garbage for a while until we look at him again, and that's a pretty * poor solution.

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 Post subject: Re: 4.6 Beta- Rocket and Derpl Personal Thoughts
 Post Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:00 pm 
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IMO I think Derpl currently is as you describe wanting him (live version).

He's not OP on either ribbit or Aiguillon, and he's decent on AI and Sorona.
Starstorm is his only problematic map, but it's not the absolute worst disbalance in the game.


The changes were to see how it would help to change trap mechanics, if they don't work (hard to say atm) they should be revrted. But I think Derpl is fine mechanics wise.

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 Post subject: Re: 4.6 Beta- Rocket and Derpl Personal Thoughts
 Post Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 8:12 pm 
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Rocket can still fly around extremely well with Mad Bomb

I think he does have some problems though. -

1. Rocket Launch not dealing any damage to turrets is extremely counter intuitive

2. Mother of Bombs should be changed to something else. It's an upgrade that encourages safety too much.

3. He needs an ammo meter (like ted's shotgun meter) if Rocket Launch damage is going to be tied to ammo count. It's hard to read how many rockets he has by counting them on his sprite.

4. the hitbox of Rocket Launch should be smaller. It's a big reason he's able to be so effective while also safe & cheesy.

5. Mad Bomb could probably be split into two stages

I can't say a ton else right now. need to actually try these beta changes in live games i think.


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 Post subject: Re: 4.6 Beta- Rocket and Derpl Personal Thoughts
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:49 pm 
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robochase6000 wrote:
1. Rocket Launch not dealing any damage to turrets is extremely counter intuitive


This has been in live for a while now and for good reason. His turret cheese was even more ridiculous. I can't think of a reason to why you would want to increase his turret cheese

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 Post subject: Re: 4.6 Beta- Rocket and Derpl Personal Thoughts
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:11 pm 
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InstapantsMan wrote:
robochase6000 wrote:
1. Rocket Launch not dealing any damage to turrets is extremely counter intuitive


This has been in live for a while now and for good reason. His turret cheese was even more ridiculous. I can't think of a reason to why you would want to increase his turret cheese


Yeah I understand that, but having it do zero damage is a really arbitrary rule when pretty much every other damage dealing projectile in the game that collides with turrets does at least something. It feels like a knee jerk hotfix to tone him down when everyone was raging about him being OP. So maybe with this beta rework, we could look at revisiting this strange interaction.


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 Post subject: Re: 4.6 Beta- Rocket and Derpl Personal Thoughts
 Post Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:27 am 
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robochase6000 wrote:
Yeah I understand that, but having it do zero damage is a really arbitrary rule when pretty much every other damage dealing projectile in the game that collides with turrets does at least something.


Like... Scoop Hammer, gnaw spit, Ted grenades, smiles hook, yoolip gaze, cocoon? Compared to last 3 initiations ix bond does do damage. Im not even mentioning other types, like yuri laser does dmg while snipe and laser trap don't. Explode bull does but explode cocoon doesn't. Nuke and explode hit through walls and hit the turret, but Dizzy clone and chucho bomb don't.

Just because there are exceptions, doesn't mean there are rules. Rockets turret dmg got removed because of long range cheese for good reason, especially unfair to the core where its always vulnerable. pretty much why hammer had the same treatment.


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 Post subject: Re: 4.6 Beta- Rocket and Derpl Personal Thoughts
 Post Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 5:38 pm 
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I'm like 95% sure hammer damages turrets. Hook, snipe & gaze aren't projectiles. I'd guess grenades damage turrets on explode but not on impact (no idea though really).

& why would cocoon damage a turret? There's an implied size limitation for what you can/cant coccoon. I'll admit it would be pretty cool if you could cocoon the turret muzzle to stop it from shooting for a moment

Exceptions like rocket & the AOEs you mentioned don't really make the game better or more elegant imo. They're mostly just bandaids to keep things moving.

Tho I'd swear sticky grenade & clone hit through walls if it has the radius.


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 Post subject: Re: 4.6 Beta- Rocket and Derpl Personal Thoughts
 Post Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 6:32 pm 
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Frozen Hammer does damage turrets for 50%.

Cocoon doesn't damage turrets at base but I think they're talking about Prefab Cocoons. I can't remember if it does but I'm inclined to believe so.

You shouldn't need to wonder—this sort of interaction should be standardised across all abilities but of course it's not. I'm not talking about Dota-levels of tooltip documentation but at least some consistency would be nice.

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 Post subject: Re: 4.6 Beta- Rocket and Derpl Personal Thoughts
 Post Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 4:55 am 
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The Lord Protector wrote:
Frozen Hammer does damage turrets for 50%.

Cocoon doesn't damage turrets at base but I think they're talking about Prefab Cocoons. I can't remember if it does but I'm inclined to believe so.

You shouldn't need to wonder—this sort of interaction should be standardised across all abilities but of course it's not. I'm not talking about Dota-levels of tooltip documentation but at least some consistency would be nice.

I don't remember prefab damaging turrets. But I know things like volt mines do. But volt healbot damage doesn't.

I'd like to see better tooltips, since some things tick and aren't in intervals of 0.1s. Maybe have an option for extra info?
Or perhaps have the info in armoury be way more in detail. Exact times and stuff.

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