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 Post subject: Re: WWHHHYYY was Leon totally changed??
 Post Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 6:27 pm 
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Luckytime wrote:
MilkingChicken wrote:
Care to explain or give evidence for this claim?

To create Ksenia all you need to do is borrow from mechanics that were already in the game at the time of her creation. Ronimo didn't need to come up with any new logic to make her character work. That, in my opinion, is a waste of a character.

And if there's some new logic involved with her knives regenerating or something, then that's all she brings to the table. Why create a whole character around something so small and insignificant?


except that leon has nothing similar to ksenia, bar the stealth.

Ksenia is a single-target poker/nuker/finisher, and has a better juke potential than leon + has 0 initiation outside of KB scissors.
Leon is designed has a stealthy initiator, don't you see a clear difference?

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 Post subject: Re: WWHHHYYY was Leon totally changed??
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 4:29 am 
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Doppelganger wrote:
except that leon has nothing similar to ksenia, bar the stealth.

Ksenia is a single-target poker/nuker/finisher, and has a better juke potential than leon + has 0 initiation outside of KB scissors.
Leon is designed has a stealthy initiator, don't you see a clear difference?

I'm not comparing Ksenia with just Leon, but also the rest of the cast. All I'm saying is that if a new character just borrows from mechanics that can be found in multiple different characters, then to me, that character is just bloating the game unnecessarily. Ksenia is just a tweaked combination of Gnaw (weedlings <-> knives), Leon (stealth), Scoop (with multiple kinds of AA), Nibbs (double jump and melee attack), anybody with a dash, and Ayla (short ranged single-target burst). What she offers is watered down or tweaked mechanics found in a bunch of other characters.

Compare her mechanics to someone like Swiggins, or even IX who was released after her. Both them are like nothing else found in the game, you can't even begin to try to compare them to other characters.


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 Post subject: Re: WWHHHYYY was Leon totally changed??
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 8:57 am 
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Does this not mean that Rocco is just a rehash of Coco, what with his skillshot that can damage multiple enemies, and an ability with which he slows opponents while also allowing him to control sections of the map?

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 Post subject: Re: WWHHHYYY was Leon totally changed??
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 9:17 am 
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Using this logic, you could say that Deadlift is like Froggy, because they both get lunging skills and a damage-reducing shield.

I personally saying that Ksenia is a waste is kinda far fetched. She's definitely different enough to be not considered a waste.

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 Post subject: Re: WWHHHYYY was Leon totally changed??
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:20 am 
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The Lord Protector wrote:
Does this not mean that Rocco is just a rehash of Coco, what with his skillshot that can damage multiple enemies, and an ability with which he slows opponents while also allowing him to control sections of the map?

More or less that's exactly right. It is the defender's nightmare to see both a Rocco and Coco on the opposing team for this exact reason, they're similar enough that defending a turret is almost impossible while dodging alternating balls and arrows. Keep in mind, however, that some characters are less wasteful than others, nothing I said should be interpreted as being black & white. But yes, you're spot on with that comparison.

MilkingChicken wrote:
Using this logic, you could say that Deadlift is like Froggy, because they both get lunging skills and a damage-reducing shield.

I personally saying that Ksenia is a waste is kinda far fetched. She's definitely different enough to be not considered a waste.

Not just Deadlift, but every character after Froggy that has a skill that imitates a dash can be compared to Froggy. That includes Vinnie, Penny, Nibbs, Ksenia, Chucho, and Lux. Dashes are a point of contention for me and I personally believe that adding more characters with dashes at this point is proof that Ronimo has run out of ideas. But at the very least Deadlift's lunge is more interesting than Chucho's speed boost, which is a great showcase for how lazily they designed that character.

I would classify the shield as unique even though it's like Froggy's because it's a specialized skill whereas Froggy's is an upgrade and very limited in it's function. Deadlift is not the most interesting character to be recently added, but he's not the dullest either. What he adds to the game may have been borrowed from existing mechanics, but those mechanics were transformed enough for me to feel like he's warranted and not necessarily a waste like Ksenia and others. Everyone is going to feel differently though, but that's just my opinion.


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 Post subject: Re: WWHHHYYY was Leon totally changed??
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 6:41 pm 
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lmao


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 Post subject: Re: WWHHHYYY was Leon totally changed??
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 9:02 pm 
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ezpz, just design a character with no:

projectiles affected by gravity
knockback projectiles
single shot bullets
air dashes
AOE damage around user
multi-jump
timed stealth
decoys
pull
melee strike
mines/stationary defense
piercing shots
AOE slow
flying
stun projectiles/attack
DOT attacks
slow wall
hitscan attack
life steal attack
ability with expendable charges
heal attack
AOE heal
projectiles that pass through terrain
detonatable projectiles
knockback attack
turret mode
AOE blind/weaken
stasis projectile
AOE shield
boomerang attack
tether
weapon switching
slow self buff
map-wide projectile
position swapping
invincibility frames
attack speed self buff
charges
gravity attack
self shield
teleport
physical wall
floating
stun+self stun
walking projectiles
ground dash
team shield


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 Post subject: Re: WWHHHYYY was Leon totally changed??
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:07 pm 
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MyClam wrote:
Copy/paste

Now you're getting the hang of it! :thumb:

Are you starting to see why game design is so difficult? But seriously, adding more of the same mechanics is the very definition of bloating. What you're indirectly implying with that list is that NOT adding any characters is worse than adding similar characters, which I wholeheartedly disagree with.

You're basically saying quantity > quality, which is an offense to my soul.


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 Post subject: Re: WWHHHYYY was Leon totally changed??
 Post Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:04 pm 
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Luckytime wrote:
MyClam wrote:
Copy/paste

Now you're getting the hang of it! :thumb:

Are you starting to see why game design is so difficult? But seriously, adding more of the same mechanics is the very definition of bloating. What you're indirectly implying with that list is that NOT adding any characters is worse than adding similar characters, which I wholeheartedly disagree with.

You're basically saying quantity > quality, which is an offense to my soul.


ksenia added max-hp % based damage, actually. it hasn't been used since, though.

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 Post subject: Re: WWHHHYYY was Leon totally changed??
 Post Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 1:07 am 
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Funnynin wrote:
ksenia added max-hp % based damage, actually. it hasn't been used since, though.

I already addressed this:
Luckytime wrote:
Why create a whole character around something so small and insignificant?


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