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 Post subject: Re: For God's Sake, give us Drafts in main queue!
 Post Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 8:17 pm 
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The Lord Protector wrote:
(On-topic, though: I can feel the Mods oiling their well-kept locks as we speak)


Yeah, if that were the case, I'd think warnings would be given out much earlier than this. Mods, in general, haven't moding in a while. :derp:

Then again, when the only new threads popping up are "Why is Ronimo so stupid as to not include X thing that the developers and player base is split on whether or not it would be beneficial for the game." threads from Deeznauts that always open with aggression and toxicity, giving him a warning about not being toxic would basically eradicate their jobs as mods as they would have nothing left to moderate if it gets to the point of account suspension/ban.

So... keep the forums alive I guess? #toxicity2017 :shrug:

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 Post subject: Re: For God's Sake, give us Drafts in main queue!
 Post Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 9:30 pm 
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#tiberiusformod2017

We still have time.

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 Post subject: Re: For God's Sake, give us Drafts in main queue!
 Post Posted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:41 pm 
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1. drafts are good
2. quit making up that bans are necessary for a draft, thats a lie
3. drafts arent inherently competitive. theyre just a tool to hopefully increase the balance and therefore enjoyment of the game. no one's getting hard countered and going "oh boy what a great fun casual experience I sure am glad the competitive tryhards didn't take this away from me!!"
4. all of you guys that are like "but if you first pick derpl then they pick TREE DERPL COUNTERS AND THEN A WHOLE TURD OF UR TEAM IS USELESS" sound like terrible teammates, go draft once in this game at all before you start talking about draft meta
5. yall are all nerds

tho maybe fix the bug where you can still see who youre playing before the match begins first

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 Post subject: Re: For God's Sake, give us Drafts in main queue!
 Post Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 2:31 pm 
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Not much can be said about "drafts are good" aside from "okay". So, okay.

Drafts are arguably not inherently competitive, but I would say they are far more competitive than not having a draft—unless you draft purely with random picks (and bans, where possible), in which case that makes no difference to what we have now.

While no one enjoys being hard countered, as you said, I do not think enjoyment of it will improve under a system that encourages it. I do not understand what you are getting at with the Derpl thing, but if you mean that hard counters do not exist in Awesomenauts, I disagree.

You can play around hard counters, but tailoring your team's composition to do that is often not fun from what I have experienced in games where the draft makes or breaks it.

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 Post subject: Re: For God's Sake, give us Drafts in main queue!
 Post Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:30 pm 
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The Lord Protector wrote:
Not much can be said about "drafts are good" aside from "okay". So, okay.

ok i win



1. drafts are more competitive than not having them, sure. drafting undeniably is an element of competitive games. but that doesn't inherently make the game competitive. i should elaborate more on what i mean cus it looks like im going back and forth - for example, balancing the game is indeniably a competitive element, but it's by no means exclusive. if a casual game was balanced to increase its fun factor, we would by no means say the game has gone from casual to competitive. i see drafts in the same light. they can be both an element of competitive and casual games.


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While no one enjoys being hard countered, as you said, I do not think enjoyment of it will improve under a system that encourages it. I do not understand what you are getting at with the Derpl thing, but if you mean that hard counters do not exist in Awesomenauts, I disagree.


im saying people keep making the scenario that someone will first pick someone, and get hard countered 3 times and not have fun. if the other team does that, they are opening up to get counter picked SUPER hard by the first team's remaining 2 picks, which 'easens' up how hard countered they get. For example, say its ribbit iv anda team first picks derpl, and the other team goes 'haha lets go raelynn!" and the first team goes like, idk gnaw and jimmy, then the 2nd team just keeps on the derpl counters and picks up like skree and ted. well they dont have much of a solution to the rest of the 1st team's comp. when gnaw then is like raiding an enemy teams jungle, and denying them space, etc, this mitigates how 'hard countered' derpl is.




also u didnt respond to 'yall are all nerds' pls dont skip pieces of my argument thats just like intellectually dishonest man

edit: * up the formatting yall will figure it out

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 Post subject: Re: For God's Sake, give us Drafts in main queue!
 Post Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 12:26 pm 
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MrPillowTheGreat wrote:
im saying people keep making the scenario that someone will first pick someone, and get hard countered 3 times and not have fun. if the other team does that, they are opening up to get counter picked SUPER hard by the first team's remaining 2 picks, which 'easens' up how hard countered they get. For example, say its ribbit iv anda team first picks derpl, and the other team goes 'haha lets go raelynn!" and the first team goes like, idk gnaw and jimmy, then the 2nd team just keeps on the derpl counters and picks up like skree and ted. well they dont have much of a solution to the rest of the 1st team's comp. when gnaw then is like raiding an enemy teams jungle, and denying them space, etc, this mitigates how 'hard countered' derpl is.

While this is true (and what I was saying before), you must appreciate that those versatile 'Nauts are so for a reason: they excel in many situations. Raelynn, for example, does not really have any hard counters (like Derpl) outside of being bursted to death faster than she can run—with enough skill, this can be avoided (in most situations). I believe that a draft would result in those situationally good 'Nauts being abandoned in favour of the more reliable ones. See Cho'gall versus Malthael in HotS for a similar situation.

I cannot see people working together in soloqueue enough to organise their own picks to help their allies (beyond perhaps not having Genji, Voltar, and Yoolip on the same team). It works in competitive because of the vested interest of the team's victory: soloqueue tends to be a "I am on a team with" attitude instead of "I am part of this team".

Basing my experience on how it works in Dota, of course. We might just be far more toxic and annoying over there.

MrPillowTheGreat wrote:
also u didnt respond to 'yall are all nerds' pls dont skip pieces of my argument thats just like intellectually dishonest man

You did not respond to my last paragraph either; I think we are even!

MrPillowTheGreat wrote:
edit: * up the formatting yall will figure it out

It is truly a car-crash of formatting, is is not?

Quite artistic in its own macabre way.

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DeezNauts wrote:
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 Post subject: Re: For God's Sake, give us Drafts in main queue!
 Post Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 7:21 pm 
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raelynn most certainly has hard counters. anyone that can stun cancel her snipe (especially with enough damage that they can get through iron shield too, such as frog or swiggins), anyone that can swiftly get through/or around a rift, gnaw just lands everything on her, jimmy pins her when she snipes and laughs. and i think the opposite of wht you claim happens with drafts- right now the situationally good nauts are more passed over in favor of generally good ones. metrics arent released anymore so i do apologize i have nothing but anecdote to offer here, but i definitely feel like i see WAY more sentrys, ixs, skrees, etc than I do guys like voltar or skolldir or ayla or leon. having drafts lets you go "oh wow this is actually a nice matchup for voltar im gonna pick that" rather than going the safe option of sentry time.

as far as soloqueuers not working together, im not sure how much of a criticism this is. first, this point seems to apply completely with or without drafts and wouldn't be much of a status quo change. that said, people who try to pick nauts to compliment their own teams do exist, and i think its more common place than you think, people just dont talk about it in chat.

"You did not respond to my last paragraph either; I think we are even!"

ok u think its not fun but i think its fun, checkmate

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 Post subject: Re: For God's Sake, give us Drafts in main queue!
 Post Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 7:48 pm 
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MrPillowTheGreat wrote:
raelynn most certainly has hard counters. anyone that can stun cancel her snipe (especially with enough damage that they can get through iron shield too, such as frog or swiggins), anyone that can swiftly get through/or around a rift, gnaw just lands everything on her, jimmy pins her when she snipes and laughs. and i think the opposite of wht you claim happens with drafts- right now the situationally good nauts are more passed over in favor of generally good ones. metrics arent released anymore so i do apologize i have nothing but anecdote to offer here, but i definitely feel like i see WAY more sentrys, ixs, skrees, etc than I do guys like voltar or skolldir or ayla or leon. having drafts lets you go "oh wow this is actually a nice matchup for voltar im gonna pick that" rather than going the safe option of sentry time.

I would argue that Ayla, Voltar, and Leon are all situationally powerful and would require the team to suit their power for them to be viable as picks (especially Voltar, as you say). I cannot say for Skølldir because I have never been any good with him.

I also agree with the situational 'Nauts being passed over in favour of the more generally good ones: the more versatile ones, as I phrased it.

MrPillowTheGreat wrote:
as far as soloqueuers not working together, im not sure how much of a criticism this is. first, this point seems to apply completely with or without drafts and wouldn't be much of a status quo change. that said, people who try to pick nauts to compliment their own teams do exist, and i think its more common place than you think, people just dont talk about it in chat.

They do exist, but I cannot remember the last time someone actually changed their pick in soloqueue to complement the rest of the team.

MrPillowTheGreat wrote:
ok u think its not fun but i think its fun, checkmate

Yahtzee.

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 Post subject: Re: For God's Sake, give us Drafts in main queue!
 Post Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 7:43 pm 
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MrPillowTheGreat wrote:
1. drafts are good
2. quit making up that bans are necessary for a draft, thats a lie
3. drafts arent inherently competitive. theyre just a tool to hopefully increase the balance and therefore enjoyment of the game. no one's getting hard countered and going "oh boy what a great fun casual experience I sure am glad the competitive tryhards didn't take this away from me!!"
4. all of you guys that are like "but if you first pick derpl then they pick TREE DERPL COUNTERS AND THEN A WHOLE TURD OF UR TEAM IS USELESS" sound like terrible teammates, go draft once in this game at all before you start talking about draft meta
5. yall are all nerds

tho maybe fix the bug where you can still see who youre playing before the match begins first


Ikr?

I've been trying to make these points for a long time here. But some people just won't accept it, no matter what. They have to always find something wrong, even if you explain to them that it's not that bad.

It's not just competitive vs. casual. You can have competitive elements in a purely casual game and vice versa, and everybody can be happy. But some people only see it as black and white and will never accept that there is a middle ground that would fit everyone. "Drafts would litereally kill this game asdfasdfadgasdgkaj" is complete nonsense. You shouldn't talk when adults are speaking, if you don't have anything intelligent to say.

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 Post subject: Re: For God's Sake, give us Drafts in main queue!
 Post Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:25 pm 
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DeezNauts wrote:
It's not just competitive vs. casual. You can have competitive elements in a purely casual game and vice versa, and everybody can be happy. But some people only see it as black and white and will never accept that there is a middle ground that would fit everyone. "Drafts would litereally kill this game asdfasdfadgasdgkaj" is complete nonsense. You shouldn't talk when adults are speaking, if you don't have anything intelligent to say.


This is black and white though since a Draft is very much an in or out sort of deal. It can vastly change how things work even if "Lightly" implemented. I don't want this sort of thing because the "Competitive aspects" of it are something that I personally find unattractive to the game. I get your point on it, however I don't think that this would improve the game,but would instead actually hurt it except for the couple people that desire it since in most cases people play the casual modes in MOBAs where this kinda stuff isn't a thing, and a small portion of the other MOBA communities touch the drafts (Those games are just so large it's not as noticeable). Awesomenauts doesn't exactly have room for stuff like this although a custom game option that is Nautsdrafter would be fine with me. I just couldn't imagine that a change like this on the main queue would go over well with the people who don't talk here on these forums, and aren't sharing their opinion.

I just don't think that it's the objectively better option, and I want this game to keep what little casual usability it has left.

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