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 Post subject: "It's an incredible amount of work for an experiment"
 Post Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 6:30 am 
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Got too tired of hearing that excuse to why a non-xp centric version of Awesomenauts couldn't be looked at again, so I made a version myself from the latest version of 4.6.0.

Took me 6 hours, and would have been faster with the proper tools (Not exactly what I'd personally consider "an incredible amount of work"). Obviously it's not polished as there was a lot of guess work involved due to the inability to test the modified files unless I updated the old file injector. Additionally upgrade stages/prices were not touched but should still suffice to get a general feel of the game if Ronimo would be willing to publish the files onto their beta branch, although I'm not expecting that much and is mainly just a debunk to the "It would take too much work" argument that keeps getting thrown around.

Modified files for 4.6.0 as evidence

Basically it just rolls back the potency of health and damage onto a similar level as pre XP system, with the XP system only being utilized for droid leveling and an additive +2% health per level for Awesomenauts and Summons. Similar to the old additive +3% additive health and droid leveling every 5 minutes, just in a more streamlined form.

Would be interested in hearing what people think about at least retrying the old system after all these years, and seeing how it stacks up against the new one.

And no, adding upgrade stages and correcting localization isn't that time consuming, it's just easy to mess up using a text editor with no way to test, which is why I left it out. Although I could very easily add them + price changes if it gets any traction.

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 Post subject: Re: "It's an incredible amount of work for an experiment"
 Post Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:18 am 
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Well I guess this was gonna pop up eventually...

2 things.

1. Nobody said that quote I dunno where it came from I even rewatched the Streamisho to see if someone said it, and nothing.

2. My issue with the old system and this proposal lies in droids/turrets lategame. In the current system you outscale them greatly in damage and health meaning that by the end they are nothing and can be knocked down like paper. This lets swings happen very often. The Old Nauts HP system didn't really have this sorta thing. You capped off after getting your 4-5 damage upgrades, and upon getting a wipe while behind were basically forced to push the standard way due to not tearing through turrets fast enough to really take advantage of a wipe or something.

This change actually would make this worse tbh as damage would be greatly outdone by hp due to the difference between them being doubled meaning that damage upgrades would end up scaling twice as bad while your pushing would never get better either.

Current: level 11
+30% damage
+40% health

vs

Proposal: Same conditions
+20% health

It's small, but it's noteworthy as damage scales even worse now into the late game because once again you just doubled how polarizing the difference will be. This also means that pills would be an even stronger pick for when you're ahead then they already are due to hp naturally curving ahead.

I just don't really get why there's such a huge push for the changes when the system itself does allow for at least some positive attributes this just feels like a band-aid attempt to fix an issue that isn't there plus you didn't even change the system back to timed hp you just changed the % numbers of the current XP system which doesn't seem to me like what you're billing it as which is the old nauts system.

You also have to consider that 5 mins for 3% hp is a very long time and an extremely slow scaling speed for Nauts. If you wanted old amounts you'd be better off with .5 or 1% hp per level.

Old system: 5 minute game (+3% hp)

Proposal:5 mins in level 6 (+12% hp)

I dunno I just feel like people look back with rose-tinted glasses sometimes, but that's just my opinion. Regardless this isn't even really what old nauts was like purely number wise.

I also REALLY doubt Ronimo is gonna put this on the branch considering how out of the way Jasper went to talk about why he wasn't going to do that, and the majority of it didn't have to do with "How much work they put into it"

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 Post subject: Re: "It's an incredible amount of work for an experiment"
 Post Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:43 am 
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Yeah, I have no idea what that quote's referring to, either. EDIT: No, it's a real quote. My mistake. I'd forgotten that the Streamisho isnt entirely composed of inane chatter and bad gameplay.

Now the XP System needs to stay not because it "evens out" the damage curve (as almost everyone previousy argued) but because it makes comebacks more likely because turrets don't scale with 'Nauts?

Not really heard that one before.

Turrets have always been trash beyond the lategame—the XP System's scaling didn't change that in any meaningful way aside from making them so weak at the absolute endgame that they might as well not exist at all uless you're Yoolip. You could argue that does promote swing mechanics, but you could also argue that this promotes stalling because a single death will lose a team the match (especially against choice pushers).

Speaking of: Pushing after a teamwipe also has nothing to do with the XP System at all, but rather the fact that there's nothing else to do in that situation. What're you going to busy yourselves with while your enemy's all respawning? Farm the Solar Boss?

Outside of killing enemy Awesomenauts, the only other objective is pushing turrets. That's literally it—this isn't Dota, where you can happily AFK in nature for 45 minutes and still be contributing. If you're not murdering the enemy team, you're throwing yourselves at turrets: that's how it was before the XP System and that's how it is now. Arguing that this dynamic has been changed because of the system's inclusion is like arguing that Lonestar wasn't a pusher pre-XP. He was, just slightly less powerful beyond the first five minutes (not that he's ever not good at pushing).

On the topic of droids:

Morrowsaw wrote:
In the current system you outscale them greatly in damage and health meaning that by the end they are nothing and can be knocked down like paper. This lets swings happen very often. The Old Nauts HP system didn't really have this sorta thing.


It's interesting that you'd include droids in this as well for a very specific reason. You'd argue that, because 'Naut damage scales as it does, droids (and turrets, but I've talked about that above) can be so easily destroyed as a game goes on, allowing a team to flip the tables and swing back to victory? I see where you're coming from, but there's one tiny issue with that:

Droid health scales faster than 'Naut damage.

As a result, only the team with the level advantage is actually dealing more damage to droids (as a percentage of EHP, you know the drill...). The team that's behind, and that would be the ones swinging the match if this reasoning were true, is actually weaker against them than they were at the beginning of the match—yet you're still going to argue, correctly so, that they "can be knocked down like paper". I agree, but that's similarly nothing to do with the XP System.

The reason droids are so weak is because droids, like turrets, are trash. The XP System didn't change that in any way, shape, or form—unless we're all going to conveniently ignore how the leading team does effectively more damage to the enemy's droids, which would be the opposite of a swing/rubberband mechanic.

Morrowsaw wrote:
It's small, but it's noteworthy as damage scales even worse now into the late game because once again you just doubled how polarizing the difference will be. This also means that pills would be an even stronger pick for when you're ahead then they already are due to hp naturally curving ahead.

I don't quite understand this bit.

What do you mean by "hp naturally curving ahead"? It's linear, no? It's not calculated as a percentage of current hitpoints. That's how Borderlands does it and it's absurd(ly hilarious). Pills just gives you a little flat boost—if anything, it's Barrier Magazine that scales better when you're ahead, due to how it interacts with EHP—god, I love EHP.

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Last edited by The Lord Protector on Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: "It's an incredible amount of work for an experiment"
 Post Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:12 am 
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The Lord Protector wrote:
Now the XP System needs to stay not because it "evens out" the damage curve (as almost everyone previousy argued) but because it makes comebacks more likely because turrets don't scale with 'Nauts?

We've argued this so many times that I'm not gonna start saying that it makes damage upgrades less mandatory. I'm just using an argument that does exist that I haven't used a million times because repeating myself is boring and I think Ronimo presented an interesting point in the Streamisho about it. I have to make this less redundant somehow ok?

The Lord Protector wrote:
Turrets have always been trash beyond the lategame—the XP System's scaling didn't change that in any meaningful way aside from making them so weak at the absolute endgame that they might as well not exist at all uless you're Yoolip. You could argue that does promote swing mechanics, but you could also argue that this promotes stalling because a single death will lose a team the match (especially against choice pushers).

Speaking of: Pushing after a teamwipe also has nothing to do with the XP System at all, but rather the fact that there's nothing else to do in that situation. What're you going to busy yourselves with while your enemy's all respawning? Farm the Solar Boss?

When I said this I meant more that the amount you can accomplish in the time after a wipe is higher (In which you have 20-30 seconds tops).Turrets have never been scary, but you do have to admit it'd have an impact in a situation like the end-game which is pretty important since in this case and ONLY this case the XP system is making a major difference.
The Lord Protector wrote:
It's interesting that you'd include droids in this as well for a very specific reason. You'd argue that, because 'Naut damage scales as it does, droids (and turrets, but I've talked about that above) can be so easily destroyed as a game goes on, allowing a team to flip the tables and swing back to victory? I see where you're coming from, but there's one tiny issue with that:

Droid health scales faster than 'Naut damage.

As a result, only the team with the level advantage is actually dealing more damage to droids (as a percentage of EHP, you know the drill...). The team that's behind, and that would be the ones swinging the match if this reasoning were true, is actually weaker against them than they were at the beginning of the match—yet you're still going to argue, correctly so, that they "can be knocked down like paper". I agree, but that's similarly nothing to do with the XP System.

The reason droids are so weak is because droids, like turrets, are trash. The XP System didn't change that in any way, shape, or form—unless we're all going to conveniently ignore how the leading team does effectively more damage to the enemy's droids, which would be the opposite of a swing/rubberband mechanic.

True, but I meant in the context of a losing team rubberbanding via a teamwipe not a conventional push. Droids are never effective at actually pushing unless you're winning, but if you're losing and you find yourself with a wipe you usually end up just face tanking a turret and taking it that way instead in my personal experience, and in those cases the droids aren't relevant, and I hardly think that doing more or less damage to droids is ever relevant, but with the system provided which you didn't mention at all btw, but the same rules apply which is that you do less and less damage as the game goes on, and this'll go for the damage you deal to droids as well. (And more so then the current system with the changes proposed)

The Lord Protector wrote:
What do you mean by "hp naturally curving ahead"? It's linear, no? It's not calculated as a percentage of current hitpoints. That's how Borderlands does it and it's absurd(ly hilarious). Pills just gives you a little flat boost—if anything, it's Barrier Magazine that scales better when you're ahead, due to how it interacts with EHP—god, I love EHP.

I didn't mean multiplicative stacking if that's what you meant. I literally just meant that with the current numbers that Ketchup provided the gap between damage and health would only get wider as the game goes on. And with a gap that wide things that effect your hp would be quite a bit more effective (And by that I mean exactly as effective as now, but hp having a larger gap could only mean that more health gets stronger think back to when pills and free pills could be stacked). I just said pills because everyone has them. Barrier mags may as well be implied because anyone who has it would run it in the context of the system proposed.

Are we good?

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 Post subject: Re: "It's an incredible amount of work for an experiment"
 Post Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:17 pm 
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Morrowsaw wrote:
1. Nobody said that quote I dunno where it came from I even rewatched the Streamisho to see if someone said it, and nothing.

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Morrowsaw wrote:
2. My issue with the old system and this proposal lies in droids/turrets lategame. In the current system you outscale them greatly in damage and health meaning that by the end they are nothing and can be knocked down like paper. This lets swings happen very often. The Old Nauts HP system didn't really have this sorta thing. You capped off after getting your 4-5 damage upgrades, and upon getting a wipe while behind were basically forced to push the standard way due to not tearing through turrets fast enough to really take advantage of a wipe or something.

You don't "greatly outscale them" in the current system unless you count 20% more turret damage at level 20 (which is almost never reached) as "greatly outscaling". Also droids gain health and damage per level like players, they don't get out scaled like turrets.

Also you're implying that people used to rush every single damage item before, one after another, and nobody even bothered with the other items, which simply wasn't the case at all. Most skolldir players didn't even get damage on their punch row the entire game. And don't pretend like people don't go for damage upgrades early in the XP system. I'm just so confused why you would lie about that, there's loads of old builds and videos out there.

Morrowsaw wrote:
This change actually would make this worse tbh as damage would be greatly outdone by hp due to the difference between them being doubled meaning that damage upgrades would end up scaling twice as bad while your pushing would never get better either.

What?

Morrowsaw wrote:
Current: level 11
+30% damage
+40% health

vs

Proposal: Same conditions
+20% health

Let me correct that.
Morrowsaw wrote:
Current: level 11
+7% health

vs

Proposal: Same conditions
+20% health

Although I will concede you can tank turrets a bit better.

Morrowsaw wrote:
This also means that pills would be an even stronger pick for when you're ahead then they already are due to hp naturally curving ahead.

What do you mean "even stronger"? Pills aren't mandatory. I rarely ever take pills on most of my characters.

Morrowsaw wrote:
I just don't really get why there's such a huge push for the changes when the system itself does allow for at least some positive attributes this just feels like a band-aid attempt to fix an issue that isn't there

Just like how the XP system was a band-aid attempt to fix an issue that wasn't there?

Morrowsaw wrote:
...plus you didn't even change the system back to timed hp you just changed the % numbers of the current XP system which doesn't seem to me like what you're billing it as which is the old nauts system.

Might as well make use of the code for the XP system somehow since it's already in place, and this just streamlines it a bit. It's still functionally the same aside from scaling a bit further into the late game. The health gain is still additive like before e.g. getting a +50% health upgrade at level 10 would result in a total of 170% health instead of it being multiplied to result in 180% health.

Morrowsaw wrote:
You also have to consider that 5 mins for 3% hp is a very long time and an extremely slow scaling speed for Nauts. If you wanted old amounts you'd be better off with .5 or 1% hp per level.

Old system: 5 minute game (+3% hp)

Proposal:5 mins in level 6 (+12% hp)

It was +3% health per 90 seconds, not +3% health per 300 seconds.

Morrowsaw wrote:
I dunno I just feel like people look back with rose-tinted glasses sometimes, but that's just my opinion. Regardless this isn't even really what old nauts was like purely number wise.

I also REALLY doubt Ronimo is gonna put this on the branch considering how out of the way Jasper went to talk about why he wasn't going to do that, and the majority of it didn't have to do with "How much work they put into it"

I'd played versions of nauts released before XP system after the XP system came out, and I just seriously enjoy how impactful all the upgrades felt, also the fact I knew how much damage I could deal at all times was helpful.

I mean, you can theory craft all you want, but all the work is done. Better to test than to sit there theorizing what it would be like.

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 Post subject: Re: "It's an incredible amount of work for an experiment"
 Post Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:26 pm 
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Credit where it's due: the quote is real.

I also agree with the rest of that.

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 Post subject: Re: "It's an incredible amount of work for an experiment"
 Post Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 6:05 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: "It's an incredible amount of work for an experiment"
 Post Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:15 pm 
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Badass Ketchup wrote:
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Welp missed that it happened like right at the beginning so I guess I accidentally skipped it. My bad.
Badass Ketchup wrote:
You don't "greatly outscale them" in the current system unless you count 20% more turret damage at level 20 (which is almost never reached) as "greatly outscaling". Also droids gain health and damage per level like players, they don't get out scaled like turrets.

Yeah, but your proposal makes the difference between damage and health larger then they already are. Which was my point with droids and I’d consider 10% extra pushing power on average pretty considerable not to mention how much hp you have by the end which lets you tank a turret with your team to almost certainly take one down.

Badass Ketchup wrote:
Also you're implying that people used to rush every single damage item before, one after another, and nobody even bothered with the other items, which simply wasn't the case at all. Most skolldir players didn't even get damage on their punch row the entire game. And don't pretend like people don't go for damage upgrades early in the XP system. I'm just so confused why you would lie about that, there's loads of old builds and videos out there.

Damage is literally always mandatory I was referring to past arguments that other people presented that aren’t true. Damage is more mandatory after XP, and your changes have the reverse effect of what the intention is which is to revert to a similar system. Where damage is more impactful.

Morrowsaw wrote:
This change actually would make this worse tbh as damage would be greatly outdone by hp due to the difference between them being doubled meaning that damage upgrades would end up scaling twice as bad while your pushing would never get better either.

Badass Ketchup wrote:
What?

I mean exactly what I said let’s use the conditions I stated before as an example.

Let’s assume a level 11 Rae Snipes with 460 base damage at a naut with 1350 base health who is the same level
Current: Snipe now deals 598 damage to a naut with 1890 health meaning snipe deals 31.6% of the Nauts health

Proposed: Snipe now deals 460 damage to a naut with 1620 health meaning snipe deals 28.3% of the Nauts health

Isn’t that kinda major?

Badass Ketchup wrote:
What do you mean "even stronger"? Pills aren't mandatory. I rarely ever take pills on most of my characters.

I just mean that when you’re ahead you can press a health gap by getting pills. With barrier mags or shielding of any kind it only becomes more effective as damage has overall less impact, and like I stated before I didn’t mean that pills were multiplicative


Badass Ketchup wrote:
It was +3% health per 90 seconds, not +3% health per 300 seconds.

That’s on you then. I don’t have the old numbers sitting in front so I went with what you provided which was this
Badass Ketchup wrote:
Similar to the old additive +3% additive health and droid leveling every 5 minutes



Badass Ketchup wrote:
I'd played versions of nauts released before XP system after the XP system came out, and I just seriously enjoy how impactful all the upgrades felt, also the fact I knew how much damage I could deal at all times was helpful.

Ummm I played way before XP was a thing as well. I just don’t feel the same way as you, and if you wanted that feeling you wouldn’t want what youre proposing now as that’d only make damage upgrades less impactful.

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 Post subject: Re: "It's an incredible amount of work for an experiment"
 Post Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:26 am 
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 Post subject: Re: "It's an incredible amount of work for an experiment"
 Post Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:14 am 
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Morrowsaw wrote:
Badass Ketchup wrote:
You don't "greatly outscale them" in the current system unless you count 20% more turret damage at level 20 (which is almost never reached) as "greatly outscaling". Also droids gain health and damage per level like players, they don't get out scaled like turrets.

Yeah, but your proposal makes the difference between damage and health larger then they already are. Which was my point with droids and I’d consider 10% extra pushing power on average pretty considerable not to mention how much hp you have by the end which lets you tank a turret with your team to almost certainly take one down.

What on earth are you talking about the difference between damage and health? This is literally level 11 Awesomenauts with more power shifted onto the upgrades. People tanked turrets fine in the past, people tank turrets fine now at level 11. Not even sure why you are trying to theorycraft any of this. I've already done the work for an actual test, not to mention the years of footage.

Morrowsaw wrote:
Badass Ketchup wrote:
Also you're implying that people used to rush every single damage item before, one after another, and nobody even bothered with the other items, which simply wasn't the case at all. Most skolldir players didn't even get damage on their punch row the entire game. And don't pretend like people don't go for damage upgrades early in the XP system. I'm just so confused why you would lie about that, there's loads of old builds and videos out there.

Damage is literally always mandatory I was referring to past arguments that other people presented that aren’t true. Damage is more mandatory after XP, and your changes have the reverse effect of what the intention is which is to revert to a similar system. Where damage is more impactful.

What on earth are you on about? Let's break this down:
1: Damage is literally always mandatory
As I said before, most skolldir players never got damage on their punch row or even their earthquake row in a lot of cases in high level competitive. If damage is *literally always mandatory* how come everyone didn't run double damage punch and damage on earthquake?

2: I was referring to past arguments that other people presented that aren’t true.
Could you point to where you were referring to past arguments by other people?

3.1:Damage is more mandatory after XP, and your changes have the reverse effect of what the intention is which is to revert to a similar system. Where damage is more impactful.
I'm assuming you're referring to the balance patch that came along with the XP system. As much as I dislike both, it helped in some cases due to the closing of potency between damage and non-damage upgrades. E.g. double clocks frog which ended up being removed due to the power. It by no means made it more mandatory. Even so, aren't you meant to be the one defending the XP system here?

Still bewildered to what kind of mental gymnastics you performed that lead you to the conclusion that 400 damage tweeters is less impactful than 270 damage tweeters.

Morrowsaw wrote:
Morrowsaw wrote:
This change actually would make this worse tbh as damage would be greatly outdone by hp due to the difference between them being doubled meaning that damage upgrades would end up scaling twice as bad while your pushing would never get better either.

Badass Ketchup wrote:
What?

I mean exactly what I said let’s use the conditions I stated before as an example.

Let’s assume a level 11 Rae Snipes with 460 base damage at a naut with 1350 base health who is the same level
Current: Snipe now deals 598 damage to a naut with 1890 health meaning snipe deals 31.6% of the Nauts health

Proposed: Snipe now deals 460 damage to a naut with 1620 health meaning snipe deals 28.3% of the Nauts health

Isn’t that kinda major?

Apart from the fact that upgrades exist and are more impactful than current. Using your own example. Pump rifle level 11 adds 187.2 damage (9.9% hp), where as pre XP (assuming the 460 base damage remains), pump rifle would add 290 damage (17.9% hp). That's almost double the % damage.

The substantial damage is increase is offset by the 0 increase in power for your other skills.

Morrowsaw wrote:
Badass Ketchup wrote:
What do you mean "even stronger"? Pills aren't mandatory. I rarely ever take pills on most of my characters.

I just mean that when you’re ahead you can press a health gap by getting pills. With barrier mags or shielding of any kind it only becomes more effective as damage has overall less impact, and like I stated before I didn’t mean that pills were multiplicative

Yeah you can buy health when you're ahead with the slight bonus of it scaling a bit more, but that difference is, in most cases, negligible, considering you're rarely ever more than 3 levels ahead of the enemy team. Buying damage + CC when you're ahead is more effective in most situations.

Morrowsaw wrote:
Badass Ketchup wrote:
It was +3% health per 90 seconds, not +3% health per 300 seconds.

That’s on you then. I don’t have the old numbers sitting in front so I went with what you provided which was this
Badass Ketchup wrote:
Similar to the old additive +3% additive health and droid leveling every 5 minutes

Should have been more clear then in that case. Droids leveled up every 5 minutes. Awesomenauts and their summons "leveled up" every 90 seconds.

But now you even admit you don't remember the old system very well, if you thought it was such little health gain over time. How can you be so adamantly sure that the current system is superior in that case?

Badass Ketchup wrote:
Badass Ketchup wrote:
I'd played versions of nauts released before XP system after the XP system came out, and I just seriously enjoy how impactful all the upgrades felt, also the fact I knew how much damage I could deal at all times was helpful.

Ummm I played way before XP was a thing as well. I just don’t feel the same way as you, and if you wanted that feeling you wouldn’t want what youre proposing now as that’d only make damage upgrades less impactful.

See above.

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