Register    Login    Forum    Search    FAQ Awesomenauts



Post new topic Reply to topic Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5

Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Reminder that leaderboards need an overhaul
 Post Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 7:19 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:47 pm
Posts: 24
The Lord Protector wrote:
arghyad1 wrote:
...in the other MOBA-s I mentioned, you can actually calculate how much you will climb or fall based on how many matches you win or lose.

I don't know how Smite's system works, but that's untrue for Dota 2.

Dota 2's matchmaking doesn't attempt to force a 50% winrate on any player, so the amount of matches you've won or lost plays no part in how much MMR you'll gain from a win, or lose for a loss.

(All of this is speculative, but highly likely based on testing.)

The matchmaker attempts (and almost always succeeds) to match players such that each team has approximately a 50% chance to win that particular match, based on the difference in "skill" between the two teams' combined abilities. The matchmaker effectively wagers 50 MMR on the outcome of the match. It's also important to note that there's no indication that the matchmaker attempts to end winning streaks, either.

Usually, the matchmaker does a very good job at forming balanced matches and then predicting the outcome, so both teams are equally as likely to win as they are to lose—hence why most matches net you +25 MMR for a win and -25 MMR for a loss. Sometimes, however, there's an imbalance between the win probabilities of the teams, and if the underdog team were to win the match (against the prediction of the matchmaker), they'd gain a greater amount of MMR. If it were a 40% | 60% split, for example, then the MMR gain/loss would be 30 (-20) | 20 (-30) respectively for the teams.

There have been examples of extremely high MMR players losing to much lower-ranked teams, and suffering a whopping -48 MMR loss as a result.

The new ranked medals are similar, but also take into account player statistics (tower damage, hero damage, healing, etc.). The matchmaker also uses these values, as far as we know, to form the teams themselves. Naturally, this means that, for everyone but said extremely high-ranked individuals (and those at the very bottom of the scale), winrates approach 50%. That, however, is only incidental.

I've always been a fan of player performance playing a role in leaderboard progression. It's a small victory for the support players, whose ability to climb is contingent entirely on their allies' competence. I'm not sure how well it would fit for Awesomenauts, though, as 'Naut roles aren't as clearly defined as they are in more traditional MOBAs.

I suppose it couldn't hurt.


Thanks for the explanation. You are correct about Dota 2 I guess, & I have also had matches that would give like 10 MMR for wins compared to the usual +25, but that would be like 1 in a 100 games or so. Also, there is no specific time of the season or day when you would get it. For Dota 2, I played around 4.5K matches, & I can confidently say atleast 3500-4000 of those games changed MMR somewhere in the range of 22 - 28 points.

Now comparing this to Awesomenauts - I used to get ~ 90 - 120 points for wins & lost ~ 10 - 15 for losses till my first ~ 100 games. Now I have played ~ 700 games & I get ~15 - 30 for wins & roughly the same deduction for losses. If this present state was the case from the beginning for me, I wouldn't blame me not climbing leagues on the leaderboard design & would look for other reasons that I would probably be able to do something about. And then there are those weird days that I already mentioned where I gain points for going 5-10 & lose points for going 10 - 5.

Also, I do agree that it is better if individual player performance can be considered while rewarding or deducting leaderboard points, but I am ok with any system that is consistent throughout compared to the present one.

_________________
Justice or Just Ice?


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Reminder that leaderboards need an overhaul
 Post Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:21 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2014 7:35 pm
Posts: 967
Location: Grenoble, France
arghyad1 wrote:
The Lord Protector wrote:
arghyad1 wrote:
...in the other MOBA-s I mentioned, you can actually calculate how much you will climb or fall based on how many matches you win or lose.

I don't know how Smite's system works, but that's untrue for Dota 2.

Dota 2's matchmaking doesn't attempt to force a 50% winrate on any player, so the amount of matches you've won or lost plays no part in how much MMR you'll gain from a win, or lose for a loss.

(All of this is speculative, but highly likely based on testing.)

The matchmaker attempts (and almost always succeeds) to match players such that each team has approximately a 50% chance to win that particular match, based on the difference in "skill" between the two teams' combined abilities. The matchmaker effectively wagers 50 MMR on the outcome of the match. It's also important to note that there's no indication that the matchmaker attempts to end winning streaks, either.

Usually, the matchmaker does a very good job at forming balanced matches and then predicting the outcome, so both teams are equally as likely to win as they are to lose—hence why most matches net you +25 MMR for a win and -25 MMR for a loss. Sometimes, however, there's an imbalance between the win probabilities of the teams, and if the underdog team were to win the match (against the prediction of the matchmaker), they'd gain a greater amount of MMR. If it were a 40% | 60% split, for example, then the MMR gain/loss would be 30 (-20) | 20 (-30) respectively for the teams.

There have been examples of extremely high MMR players losing to much lower-ranked teams, and suffering a whopping -48 MMR loss as a result.

The new ranked medals are similar, but also take into account player statistics (tower damage, hero damage, healing, etc.). The matchmaker also uses these values, as far as we know, to form the teams themselves. Naturally, this means that, for everyone but said extremely high-ranked individuals (and those at the very bottom of the scale), winrates approach 50%. That, however, is only incidental.

I've always been a fan of player performance playing a role in leaderboard progression. It's a small victory for the support players, whose ability to climb is contingent entirely on their allies' competence. I'm not sure how well it would fit for Awesomenauts, though, as 'Naut roles aren't as clearly defined as they are in more traditional MOBAs.

I suppose it couldn't hurt.


Thanks for the explanation. You are correct about Dota 2 I guess, & I have also had matches that would give like 10 MMR for wins compared to the usual +25, but that would be like 1 in a 100 games or so. Also, there is no specific time of the season or day when you would get it. For Dota 2, I played around 4.5K matches, & I can confidently say atleast 3500-4000 of those games changed MMR somewhere in the range of 22 - 28 points.

Now comparing this to Awesomenauts - I used to get ~ 90 - 120 points for wins & lost ~ 10 - 15 for losses till my first ~ 100 games. Now I have played ~ 700 games & I get ~15 - 30 for wins & roughly the same deduction for losses. If this present state was the case from the beginning for me, I wouldn't blame me not climbing leagues on the leaderboard design & would look for other reasons that I would probably be able to do something about. And then there are those weird days that I already mentioned where I gain points for going 5-10 & lose points for going 10 - 5.

Also, I do agree that it is better if individual player performance can be considered while rewarding or deducting leaderboard points, but I am ok with any system that is consistent throughout compared to the present one.

If Awesomenauts had the playerbase of Dota, I am pretty sure the amount of rating you win/lose would be pretty consistent too.

But Awesomenauts doesn't have the playerbase of Dota. So a good portion of the matches have a "favorized" side, leading to an inconsistent rating gain/loss.

_________________
Admin of the Rollcage steam group
GRIP - Intense futuristic combat racer


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Reminder that leaderboards need an overhaul
 Post Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:30 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:47 pm
Posts: 24
Quote:
If Awesomenauts had the playerbase of Dota, I am pretty sure the amount of rating you win/lose would be pretty consistent too.

But Awesomenauts doesn't have the playerbase of Dota. So a good portion of the matches have a "favorized" side, leading to an inconsistent rating gain/loss.


True.

But still, I think resetting everyone to something like 10k & then linear point scaling would be better than what we have now, even if it is not possible to incorporate individual player's performance into it.

_________________
Justice or Just Ice?


Top 
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
 
Post new topic Reply to topic Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5